Performance vs. Combative Hyungs

[Makalakumu]

In TSD, largely all of the schools out there practice a performance based approach to their hyung. IMO, this is because the bulk of our hyung were changed from their original combative forms to a form that would offer a little more flash and look better in performance.

To get a better sense of what I'm talking about, take a look at these two hyung...

Here is a version of bassai that is close to what most tangsoodoin practice.

Here is a version of passai kata from a combative orientated okinawan-te style.

Note the large difference in performance. There certainly are similarities and differences, but I think that it is fairly obvious that the kata that we practice descended from a form that was very much like this.

With that being said, how much do you think the changes done for "performance" purposes affect the overall combative value of the hyung? Would it be worth reverting our hyung back to their pre-performance combative state or are our hyungs just fine?

 

[JWLuiza]

In TSD, largely all of the schools out there practice a performance based approach to their hyung. IMO, this is because the bulk of our hyung were changed from their original combative forms to a form that would offer a little more flash and look better in performance.

To get a better sense of what I'm talking about, take a look at these two hyung...

Here is a version of bassai that is close to what most tangsoodoin practice.

Here is a version of passai kata from a combative orientated okinawan-te style.

Note the large difference in performance. There certainly are similarities and differences, but I think that it is fairly obvious that the kata that we practice descended from a form that was very much like this.

With that being said, how much do you think the changes done for "performance" purposes affect the overall combative value of the hyung? Would it be worth reverting our hyung back to their pre-performance combative state or are our hyungs just fine?

It's not how we DO the kata, it is how we TRAIN the kata. I think you'd love this guy:

www.iainabernethy.com

Training kata isn't just the solo performance, like your school does it is the bunkai and other training you do. He calls it the 95% of Karate (Tang Soo DO) that was forgotten.

 

[Makalakumu]

Training the kata is exactly what I'm talking about. In the combative form that I posted above, there seemed to many more clear cut examples and principles that could be trained. In our version, some of that stuff is still there, but other things have been changed for aesthetic purposes. This is why I'm wondering about the question I posted. Basically, I'm asking if people think TSD hyung are too watered down.

 

[Tez3]

Training the kata is exactly what I'm talking about. In the combative form that I posted above, there seemed to many more clear cut examples and principles that could be trained. In our version, some of that stuff is still there, but other things have been changed for aesthetic purposes. This is why I'm wondering about the question I posted. Basically, I'm asking if people think TSD hyung are too watered down.

I'm afraid I can't get the videos to work on my computer which is disappointing ( I'm going to have to post up on the computr forum to see if I can remedy this) but I trained in Wado Ryu before having to change to TSD when my club closed down. I'm afraid I have to say yes I think the TSD hyungs are very much watered down.

The first three hyung are simplistic where the first kata I learned in Wado was Pinan Nidan which had some, for a beginner, difficult moves in. The Pyung Hyung which correspond I believe to the Pinan kata have had so many moves changed to simpler ones and others missed out totally I quite honestly don't enjoy doing them. I know I have a bias towards Wado, I do love it and everything about it but I frankly found no challenge in the TSD hyungs.There's no different stances only basic ones, in Wado there are 5 natural stances, 11 uneven stances,6 even stances and four other stances. The reasoning behind this is to have good balance. I also miss having a bigger repertoire of kicks also kicking off either leg. We also had Taoshiwaza, takedowns plus more strikes and blocks. This is all reflected in the kata.

I like TSD and I don't want people to think I'm putting it down but I will never love it and I feel there is so much being missed out, I find it very frustrating. Frankly when I'm teaching the children and my one adult student I also teach them some Wado to give them more to challenge them.

 

[JWLuiza]

I'm afraid I can't get the videos to work on my computer which is disappointing ( I'm going to have to post up on the computr forum to see if I can remedy this) but I trained in Wado Ryu before having to change to TSD when my club closed down. I'm afraid I have to say yes I think the TSD hyungs are very much watered down.

The first three hyung are simplistic where the first kata I learned in Wado was Pinan Nidan which had some, for a beginner, difficult moves in. The Pyung Hyung which correspond I believe to the Pinan kata have had so many moves changed to simpler ones and others missed out totally I quite honestly don't enjoy doing them. I know I have a bias towards Wado, I do love it and everything about it but I frankly found no challenge in the TSD hyungs.There's no different stances only basic ones, in Wado there are 5 natural stances, 11 uneven stances,6 even stances and four other stances. The reasoning behind this is to have good balance. I also miss having a bigger repertoire of kicks also kicking off either leg. We also had Taoshiwaza, takedowns plus more strikes and blocks. This is all reflected in the kata.

I like TSD and I don't want people to think I'm putting it down but I will never love it and I feel there is so much being missed out, I find it very frustrating. Frankly when I'm teaching the children and my one adult student I also teach them some Wado to give them more to challenge them.

I'm not so sure. The Passai I saw from upnorth's post, isn't that far off and I don't think you'll miss much performing the TSD version. I just watched Bassai and Kanku by a Wado guy and they are also very similar to the TSD versions.

IIRC correctly, Wado is actually and offshoot of Shotokan with some jujutsu...

I personally think there might be some elements missing, but the core is there, so it makes no difference, as long as you find the core.

 

[exile]

Training the kata is exactly what I'm talking about. In the combative form that I posted above, there seemed to many more clear cut examples and principles that could be trained. In our version, some of that stuff is still there, but other things have been changed for aesthetic purposes. This is why I'm wondering about the question I posted. Basically, I'm asking if people think TSD hyung are too watered down.

UpN, can I make a suggestion? It would probably add a lot of momentum to the discussion if you cited a couple of subsequences in the Okinawan kata, their analogues in the TSD hyung, and pointed some specific respects in which the combat applications of the Okinawan form are more transparent or coherent, or where the TSD version seems to lack them altogether. I think that would give a nice edge to the query you're pursuing here.

 

[Tez3]

I'm not so sure. The Passai I saw from upnorth's post, isn't that far off and I don't think you'll miss much performing the TSD version. I just watched Bassai and Kanku by a Wado guy and they are also very similar to the TSD versions.

IIRC correctly, Wado is actually and offshoot of Shotokan with some jujutsu...

I personally think there might be some elements missing, but the core is there, so it makes no difference, as long as you find the core.

I'm quite aware of what Wado Ryu's roots are and I would describe it as more than an offshoot of Shotokan with some juijitsu thrown in. Ohtsuka Sensei the founder of Wado was originally Shotokan but was also a Juijitsu Master so the two were carefully blended not just chucked in for a bit of variety.
Similiar how....? As I said the TSD hyungs are simliar to the Wado and presumably Shotokan katas but a carthorse is simliar to a racehorse!

 

[JWLuiza]

I'm quite aware of what Wado Ryu's roots are and I would describe it as more than an offshoot of Shotokan with some juijitsu thrown in. Ohtsuka Sensei the founder of Wado was originally Shotokan but was also a Juijitsu Master so the two were carefully blended not just chucked in for a bit of variety.
Similiar how....? As I said the TSD hyungs are simliar to the Wado and presumably Shotokan katas but a carthorse is simliar to a racehorse!

Sorry, I wasn't trying to diminish Wado Ryu at all. I think the training is great in Wado. But the sequences of techniques are so similar that they would suggest the same bunkai. To keep your analogy, a TSD is also a racehorse... maybe one that just needs a bit more grooming than an okinawan horse. I don't think we lost much from the okinawan source. I could be wrong. I'd need to hang out with some okinawan people some more.

 

[exile]

As I said the TSD hyungs are simliar to the Wado and presumably Shotokan katas but a carthorse is simliar to a racehorse!

But the sequences of techniques are so similar that they would suggest the same bunkai. To keep your analogy, a TSD is also a racehorse... maybe one that just needs a bit more grooming than an okinawan horse. I don't think we lost much from the okinawan source.

This is exactly why I suggested that the discussion would benefit by getting down to a finer level of detail; otherwise, it won't be crystal clear just which combat apps are being foregrounded in the Okinwan version and obscured or even eliminated in the TSD version, as UpN seems to be suggesting.

 

[Tez3]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to diminish Wado Ryu at all. I think the training is great in Wado. But the sequences of techniques are so similar that they would suggest the same bunkai. To keep your analogy, a TSD is also a racehorse... maybe one that just needs a bit more grooming than an okinawan horse. I don't think we lost much from the okinawan source. I could be wrong. I'd need to hang out with some okinawan people some more.

No worries, The sequences are similiar but I think there is more information in the kata than the hyungs as regards the Bunkai.


Ok Pinan Yodan and Pyung Oh Dan the last moves of.

Pyung Oh Dan the way we were taught - finishes three double blocks, a knee strike then turn into a knife hand ( we do one though the book says two)
Pinan Yodan, three double blocks, knee strike then turn 220deg into side view cat stance with a left hook block and a right downward block then twist into the opposite side and same movements with opposite arms.
I won't post the Bunkai lol!

 

[Ian wallace]

correct me if im wrong but i always thought that there is no true understanding to some of the applications and that many styles do what they think works, our assosiation might differ with some techniques that other T.S.D assosiations! what i am saying is more of a question that a statement!!

 

[Makalakumu]

correct me if im wrong but i always thought that there is no true understanding to some of the applications and that many styles do what they think works, our assosiation might differ with some techniques that other T.S.D assosiations! what i am saying is more of a question that a statement!!

My guess is that this is one of the myths that get propagated in TSD circles because people didn't originally know the applications so when they tried to understand the forms, certain techniques didn't make sense. Saying that, I think I can point out several sequences in most TSD forms where the average tangsoodoin is going to have problems. These techniques very greatly, but I think they all have one thing in common...my guess is that they ALL were changes made in order to make the hyung more aesthetic.

 

[Makalakumu]

UpN, can I make a suggestion? It would probably add a lot of momentum to the discussion if you cited a couple of subsequences in the Okinawan kata, their analogues in the TSD hyung, and pointed some specific respects in which the combat applications of the Okinawan form are more transparent or coherent, or where the TSD version seems to lack them altogether. I think that would give a nice edge to the query you're pursuing here.

Good suggestion. Lets start with the two versions of Bassai that I posted.

In the TSD version, look specifically at the section from 20-25 seconds. There looks to be some sort of grabbing move and a high side kick. The grabbing move isn't really well defined and there doesn't seem to be any particular attack or angle that this is applied. And then there is the high side kick. Don't get me started.

Look at the same section in the shorin ryu version of this kata. From 25-30s the grabbing move very crisp, it is definitely aligned to deal with a specific attack, and the kick is far more realistic.

Also, look at the section at the very end of the kata. In the first, its about 55-60s and in the second its 54-58s. The difference in application is clearly identifiable and the intent seems more clearer in the second.

Does anyone else see what I'm looking at? Does anyone else see anything different? Can anyone else see how those sections in the second form could have been "prettied up" in order to create the TSD version?

 

[exile]

...Lets start with the two versions of Bassai that I posted.

In the TSD version, look specifically at the section from 20-25 seconds. There looks to be some sort of grabbing move and a high side kick. The grabbing move isn't really well defined and there doesn't seem to be any particular attack or angle that this is applied. And then there is the high side kick. Don't get me started.

The height of the kicks (the side kick and the inside crescent), and some of the very marked `jumping' moves, were the two things that hit me most immediately about the TSD version (along with the nearly vertical orientation of the line between the fists in those `double punch' moves, which always look like parts of throws to me). I'm going to go back to the two vids and do the comparison of the sections you're pointing out—this is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind!

More soon....

 

[JWLuiza]

but does "prettying it up" take away the martial knowledge, given that many schools don't train the bunkai even if they are okinawan or old school? The kata are the syllabus, the two man training is what you remember and apply, that's the importance. The solo kata are just a reference point. Probably the okinawan versions are better references, I don't think anyone can safely debate the other side of that point, BUT you have to start asking yourself, at which point do I stop doing TSD and am now a karateka, not a TSD artist.

 

[exile]

Right. In addition to what I mentioned in my preceding post, it's obvious that the TSD version is a lot more... dramatic, for want of a better word. The second sequence comparsion, at the very end, is particulary clear: the underscored maintenance of the one-legged stance, the investment of obvious tension in a number of the movement components... really, if I'd just seen those two subclips in isolation, it wouldn't have occurred to me that they were different variants of the `same' kata.

And if I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that the extra elaborations in the TSD form don't earn their keep, so to speak. They don't contribute combative content to the bunkai, yes?

Bill Burgar, in his book on realistic bunkai for Gojushiho, makes a similar point wrt the Shotokan version of this kata vs. his own, `stripped down' and relentlessly functional interpretation of the execution. It's something I've always wondered about: yes, we want deep, robust combat bunkai... but how should the `æsthetic elaboration' factor be handled? It's relatively straightforward here to identify the places where that's happened, because we have something much closer to the original form side-by-side with a demonstrably much later development. But what about the cases where you only have a Korean version of the form? Clearly this is way more likely to arise in the context of TKD, but it still could be a problem for TSD—it surely can't be the case that all of your hyungs are simply Koreanized versions of classic Okinawan kata via Japan?

I wonder, UpN—could you maybe sketch a quick summary of how you see the bunkai (in general terms, at least) for the Okinawan art in those two sequences, and the degree to which the Korean form has obscured those bunkai?

 

[Makalakumu]

BUT you have to start asking yourself, at which point do I stop doing TSD and am now a karateka, not a TSD artist.

That would require defining what exactly is TSD...and that is no easy task. In many ways we are ecclectic mix. Also, I think its fair to mention that even the Okinawans at some point called their art Tang Soo, indicating that the art had come from China.

 

[JWLuiza]

That would require defining what exactly is TSD...and that is no easy task. In many ways we are ecclectic mix. Also, I think its fair to mention that even the Okinawans at some point called their art Tang Soo, indicating that the art had come from China.

I think that there is some cultural baggage that comes with doing a korean art... eventually, you've stipped the skin off the art....

I'm not saying you shouldn't be thinking about it, but would it be Korean TSD? I dunno.

Plus, if you did Shito-Ryu there are a whole load of forms there we koreans don't get to see much of.....

 

[Makalakumu]

I wonder, UpN—could you maybe sketch a quick summary of how you see the bunkai (in general terms, at least) for the Okinawan art in those two sequences, and the degree to which the Korean form has obscured those bunkai?

That could be a very long post because the bunkai aren't neccesarily specific. Without elaborating on exact sequences, I would say that the Okinawan version shows the principles in more detail. It also represents a closer kinestetic match to the actual function of the movement.

For example, when you see the practicioner in the Okinawan Passai performing the two handed manuevers that tangsoodoin call "choong dan soo do mahkee" they are done with a degree of tension and precision that hints that they may be blocking an attack and striking or simultaneously blocking and striking or grabbing and striking or grabbing and locking.

In the TSD version, I know all of that stuff is there, but its not because I could see it in the form. It's because I researched other versions and trained with other people in order to find this stuff out.

I've read that Itosu intentionally hid a lot of these applications when he remade kara-te for school children. But, if you knew the secrets that he intentionally left in the forms, then you could revert them back to their more deadly version at will. Funakoshi elaborates on this point by basically saying that the Taikyoku series of forms contained all of the secrets of Kare-te if you knew where to look. Many karateka postulate that these forms were designed to preserve the instructions that Itosu left regarding the desanitization of the kata.

As far as TSD is concerned, I think we can learn from this stuff. The 10 basic kata up to chodan are gicho 1-3, pyung ahn 1-5, bassai, and naihanchi chodan. It is not impossible for the tangsoodoin to find the desanitized version of these forms and learn from it.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think that there is some cultural baggage that comes with doing a korean art... eventually, you've stipped the skin off the art....

I'm not saying you shouldn't be thinking about it, but would it be Korean TSD? I dunno.

Plus, if you did Shito-Ryu there are a whole load of forms there we koreans don't get to see much of.....

Is it stripping the skin off of the art or is it ryu-pa? This, IMHO, is one of the problems of the large federations. They stress a hierarchical structure that controls the art from the top down. People like you and me who start thinking about this stuff aren't taken seriously and eventually we stop advancing because we have "improper" attitudes regarding tradition. I remember being told, when I was a member of the USSBDMDK federation, that I needed to be at least 3rd dan before I could even begin to think about our forms in the way that I was thinking about them.

This was almost 10 years ago.