Our very own Gulag...

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rmcrobertson

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In a report issued May 25, Amnesty International described the U.S. as having established a, "new gulag," around the world, with detainees locked up in Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. Additional, the organization noted that our country had done considerable damage to the very notion of human rights, with our President and his Administration repeatedly and vocally arguing against the very concept that certain of our detainees had any rights at all--including rights to be safe from torture.

Here's the "Chicago Sun_Times," article:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/amnesty25.html

Asked about this during an AM press conference, the President of the United States said that the report was, "absurd," and avoided further comment.
 

Phil Elmore

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Yep, there's an impartial organization, Amnesty International.

I hear we tear up Korans, too.
 
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rmcrobertson

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1. Please give your evidence for the claim that Amnesty International is in some fashion biased.

2. If you will look at their website, you will find reports on EVERYBODY. I particulalry recommend the section titled, "Extrajudicial Executions," which can be found at:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-384/index

3. Please explain any grounds for claiming that their report--and their evaluation--is incorrect.

Will we be dealing with the question any time soon?
 
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rmcrobertson

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The Global Policy website makes it rather clear that in their minds, AI is far too conservative and pro-West, particulalry too easy on the US.

Will we be dealing with the question--why the hell is my country anywhere near a list like this?--any time soon?
 

Tgace

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The U.S. Department of Defense said abuse allegations are investigated and it was continuing to evaluate whether detainees should be sent home.

Review tribunals also "provided an appropriate venue for detainees to meaningfully challenge their enemy combatant designation," the department said in a statement.

"The detention of enemy combatants is not criminal in nature, but to prevent them from continuing to fight against the United States in the war on terrorism," it added. "This is an unprecedented level of process being provided to our enemies in a time of war." the Department of Defense said, adding that abuse allegations are investigated.

....While criticizing the detention mission at Guantanamo, Amnesty said one sign of hope was the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in June that let prisoners challenge the basis of their detention. It also said it was encouraging that Britain's high court lords ruled on the indefinite detention without charge or trial of "terrorist suspects."
A true gulag nation would have repressed the story, made no comment and probably shot the reporter.
 
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rmcrobertson

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You're not going to actually look at the report, then.
 

Tgace

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http://hnn.us/articles/5106.html

The abuse of POWs in Baghdad and the legal no mans land constructed for the Guantanamo enemy combatants is nothing new, then, in the annals of American warfare. It is rare though that we get to see such explicit pictures of abused prisoners so soon after their maltreatment. It is also unique among the American public to have such a widespread suspicion that something is very fishy with the Guantanamo enemy combatants being denied any legal protections for over two years now now under review by the Supreme Court. German DEFs during World War II were only left in such legal limbo for a few chaotic postwar weeks, before the vast majority of them were released and sent home.
 

Tgace

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But to be open to the counter argument. Even the US military has some question as to the Presidents policy regarding the POW/Detainee enigma. They however have to operate within the parameters (and orders) given them...This is a paper from the Air Force Academy.

http://atlas.usafa.af.mil/jscope/JSCOPE03/Kaurin03.html
 

Phil Elmore

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No, you're absolutely right, Mr. Robertson. We must stop the abuse of the Koran now. I'm particularly upset about the reports about that.
 
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rmcrobertson

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Yes, thank you for quoting the History News Network site, which I hadn't heretofore seen. Good site--and one that, oddly enough, repeatedly prints articles and essays attacking Dubya's bizarre takes on American and world history! Of what I saw, here's my fave in this context:

"Tony Blankley appeared on MSNBC's "Hardball" the other night, looking a bit ashen. As a panel member discussing the president's grave and gathering problems, the former Newt Gingrich evangelist and current Reverend Moon spokesman volunteered that even Republican support for George W is beginning to slip. This is bad, in his view. I'd like to relate Mr. Blankley's complete personal take on W's falling numbers, but, it being "Hardball," Chris Mouthews was there to interrupt and talk over the guest. So I can't relate much with certainty.

Yet I have little doubt that Blankley and fellow conservatives would be in private agreement in identifying specific causes of W's decline and the relative harm each is doing. There's Iraq, of course, probably this nation's greatest foreign policy blunder ever. When you factor in the blunder's increasingly apparent intentionality, mere blundering then transmogrifies into the criminal."

Not much there of comfort to Bush supporters, I'd say.

Will be be discussing the topic any time soon?
 

Phil Elmore

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How about the persistent reports that Republicans kick puppies and take candy from children? I think we should all be very upset about that.
 

Tgace

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What issue? That situations like this crop up during every conflict? As the supreme court is now getting involved I would say that our system is doing what its supposed to do. Look at a new situation and see how our law should apply. It obviously isnt happening fast enough for some folks....
 
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rmcrobertson

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Yes, thank you for quoting the paper concerning the Bush Admin's denial of basic rights to detainees, printed on the Adademy's website. Here is its conclusion:

"This paper had attempted to address a lacuna in the discussion of whether prisoner of war (POW) status and treatment will be accorded to the Taliban and Al-Qaeda detainees at Guantanamo Bay: precedent. I have argued that three cases, the American Revolutionary War, the US Civil War and the Vietnam conflict, all provide analogous points that we should look in thinking about the present case. While the Vietnam case has the closest analogy (and several policy suggestions were made on the basis of the precedent from that conflict), all of the examples demonstrate that the United States has, even in cases where it was not required by the customs of war or international statute to do so, accorded prisoner of war status and treatment to enemy combatants captured in the course of hostilities. In formulating present and future policies regarding these detainees, the Bush Administration needs to take account, not just of what the letter of the international conventions and statutes say, but also what precedent indicates. If they determine that past precedent is not applicable and/or a new precedent is indicated, (like judges) they must give a clear and compelling argument and rationale for the change in precedent as opposed to just asserting that it does not apply."

Must I really go look up the Nuremberg trials, and the sections in treaties to which the United States is signatory, in which it is explicitly stated that members of the armed services, even in times of war, have an absolute moral and legal responsibility to refuse an illegal order--which, incidentally, is precisely what the UCMJ also says?

And, uh, Phil? The AI report actually covers the U.S.'s illegal detentions, beatings and physical abuses, aiding and abetting torture, and in a few cases murders, of prisoners around the world. But thanks for the attempt to trivialize a moral and legal issue.

Will we be discussing the topic soon?
 

Phil Elmore

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All of that pales in comparison to the puppy kicking in which we all know Republicans engage -- when they're not twirling the ends of their waxed mustaches and laughing nefariously over the bound forms of young women lying perpendicular to railroad tracks.

MFT50531.jpg
 

michaeledward

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Tgace said:
A true gulag nation would have repressed the story, made no comment and probably shot the reporter.
And you think that repression was not attempted? Amnesty International is not an American Organization (see the International part of its name). Seems to me, the powers are attempting to keep as much information private as they can.

10 years ago, the government of this country created approximately 3 million items that were labeled 'Secret'. By last year, that number had changed to 15 million 'Secrets'.

What are all those secrets about anyhow?
 

Tgace

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I just spent yesterday wrestling a power sewer auger through my sewer system because my kids clogged it with non-flushible baby wipes (I wouldnt wish that even on you Robert ;) )...cant imagine the mess a Koran or 2 would make.
 
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