Origin of Uechi Ryu Karate?

[opr1945]

"Different styles had developed in three different cities–Shuri, Naha and Tomari in different forms. The styles were named Shuri-Te, Naha-Te, and Tomari-Te."

Did Uechi Ryu descend from China throught one of these styles or directly from a chinese style without Okinawan influence? Or a different history altogether?

Thanks.

 

[isshinryuronin]

See my recent post on the "koubu ryu karate" thread.

 

[opr1945]

read your post. So you are saying Uechi Ryu is a spliter group? Splinter from Shuri-Te, Naha-Te or Tomari-Te?
Or 5 Ancestors, Southern Kung Fu, Southern White Crane Or Pangai-noon? I am really confused. Clarity would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[opr1945]

I just ame across this thread

Internal and External Okinawan Styles.

I see on a Shorei-ryu page the statements: Okinawa has 3 basic facets: 1). Shuri-Te (external, also known as Sho-Rin Ryu.) 2). Tomari-Te (external and internal, also known as Isshin Ryu.) 3). Naha-Te (internal, also known as Goju Ryu.) Leaving aside any issues with the...

www.martialtalk.com

It is on the same topic, I think. But, I got lost in it. too complicated for me. But then I have been studying Karate for well less than a year. So I will bookmark it and maybe in the future it will make more sense.

Others may find it useful.

 

[isshinryuronin]

read your post. So you are saying Uechi Ryu is a spliter group? Splinter from Shuri-Te, Naha-Te or Tomari-Te?
Or 5 Ancestors, Southern Kung Fu, Southern White Crane Or Pangai-noon? I am really confused. Clarity would be appreciated. Thanks.

Yes, you are confused. Uechi learned Chinese MA for many years in southern China. I don't think we know for certain whether he learned a style there called Pangai no'on or he actually developed it himself as a synthesis of several Chinese crane styles as well as (possibly) mantis and wing chun. This would have been during the early 1900's.

He then returned to Okinawa and Japan. During WWII either he, or his son (depending on which story you like - I think it more likely his son) changed the name from Pangai No'on to Uechi ryu. They are more or less the same style. He probably modified his style a bit over the years. So, I wouldn't call Uechi ryu a splinter from Pangai, but rather a slightly evolved form of it.

Uechi ryu has been less influenced by the prototype Okinawan styles (Shuri, Tomari and Naha-te) retaining more of its original Chinese character and so has a different look than today's other Okinawan styles.

The major splintering of Uechi ryu came much later in its history, some taking on new names as well as new organizations. How close they are to the main branch, I don't know since I'm not an Uechi ryu guy (though I wouldn't mind being one).

 

[Buka]

I know a couple of ninth Dan Uechi guys, I could ask them if you guys like.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I just ame across this thread

Internal and External Okinawan Styles.

I see on a Shorei-ryu page the statements: Okinawa has 3 basic facets: 1). Shuri-Te (external, also known as Sho-Rin Ryu.) 2). Tomari-Te (external and internal, also known as Isshin Ryu.) 3). Naha-Te (internal, also known as Goju Ryu.) Leaving aside any issues with the...

www.martialtalk.com

It is on the same topic, I think. But, I got lost in it. too complicated for me. But then I have been studying Karate for well less than a year. So I will bookmark it and maybe in the future it will make more sense.

Others may find it useful.

This article is not accurate, even grossly so. Shuri-te's "father" was Matsumura. He taught shorinryu's Kyan but also Shotokan's Funakoshi and Itosu as well. It can be said shorin is the main subset of Shuri-te, but not the only one.

Tomari-te's main character is Matsumora who also spent time with Itosu. Itosu and Matsumora taught Motobu Choki, who in turn taught a little to isshinryu's founder, Shimabuku. There is just a tiny bit of Tomari-te in isshinryu which is about 80% related to shorinryu. Tomari-te is often described as a branch of Shuri-te.

Naha-te's father can be said to be Higashionna Kanryo. He taught goju founder Miyagi, to'on ryu founder Kyoda Juhatsu and shito-ryu founder Mabuni Kenwa (who had multiple teachers). Goju is the main subset of Naha-te, but not the only one.

edit: Uechi ryu is sometimes put in the Naha-te group as well, but I think it developed outside of Higashionna's direct sphere. So maybe it deserves its own category? This may be a topic for advanced discussion beyond my current knowledge.

So one cannot say Shuri-te = X style, Tomari-te=Y style and Naha-te= Z style.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I know a couple of ninth Dan Uechi guys, I could ask them if you guys like.

I'd like to know, after Uechi Kanbun returned from China with his pangai noon, how much was it "Okinawanized"? In what way? Do they consider it a Naha-te style or its own category? There's a good chance these questions may be unanswerable, but any info would be nice since it's more than I know now. Thanks in advance, to you and your Uechi ryu contacts.

 

[opr1945]

"Yes, you are confused. Uechi learned Chinese MA for many years in southern China. I don't think we know for certain whether he learned a style there called Pangai no'on or he actually developed it himself as a synthesis of several Chinese crane styles as well as (possibly) mantis and wing chun. This would have been during the early 1900's." (Emphasis added.)

I agree.

 

[Buka]

I'd like to know, after Uechi Kanbun returned from China with his pangai noon, how much was it "Okinawanized"? In what way? Do they consider it a Naha-te style or its own category? There's a good chance these questions may be unanswerable, but any info would be nice since it's more than I know now. Thanks in advance, to you and your Uechi ryu contacts.

Yes, sure, I’ll reach out to my buddy, Jay, we used to be sparring partners back in the day. I just looked him up, he’s a tenth Dan now.
Who knew? He never told me.

 

[Buka]

This is Jay. Really nice guy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You may find similarity between these forms and Uechi Ryu?

 

[Hot Lunch]

Uechi-ryu is grouped with Naha-te because of the direct influence White Crane.

 

[opr1945]

Let me see if I got this. In late 1800's there was a community of Okinawans living in Fujian Province, China. Kanbun Uechi wanted to avoid the Japanese draft so he went to Fujian Province, China. While there he, and other Okinawans, studied Chinese Martial Arts. The exact style he studied is unknown. After a period of time he and othere Okinawans returned to Okinawa. They combined what they learned in China with traditional Okinawan Martial Arts and created Karate. The most famous of these were located in three cities and their styles were named after the cities in which they were located and became known as Shuri-Te, Naha-Te or Tomari-Te. These evolved into what is now known as Shorin-ryu, Wado-ryu, Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu, Shotokan, Isshin-ryū, Kyokushin and others.

Kanbun Uechi's experience was somewhat different. In that he taught or created a style called Pangai No'on (Pangainoon). This style was based mostly upon what he learned in China and was not influenced by Okinawan Martial arts to the extent the other styles were. Thus, it is seen as more traditional (Chinese) than the others and not descended from them. He eventually moved to mainland Japan and taught his style. He eventually returned to Okinawa and opened a Dojo there. His son Kanei Uechi renamed the style Uechi Ryu after his farther's death in 1948.

This painting with a broad brush, I know. But does this bare any resemblence to what actually happened?

 

[hoshin1600]

Let me see if I got this. In late 1800's there was a community of Okinawans living in Fujian Province, China. Kanbun Uechi wanted to avoid the Japanese draft so he went to Fujian Province, China. While there he, and other Okinawans, studied Chinese Martial Arts. The exact style he studied is unknown. After a period of time he and othere Okinawans returned to Okinawa. They combined what they learned in China with traditional Okinawan Martial Arts and created Karate. The most famous of these were located in three cities and their styles were named after the cities in which they were located and became known as Shuri-Te, Naha-Te or Tomari-Te. These evolved into what is now known as Shorin-ryu, Wado-ryu, Shito-ryu, Goju-ryu, Shotokan, Isshin-ryū, Kyokushin and others.

Kanbun Uechi's experience was somewhat different. In that he taught or created a style called Pangai No'on (Pangainoon). This style was based mostly upon what he learned in China and was not influenced by Okinawan Martial arts to the extent the other styles were. Thus, it is seen as more traditional (Chinese) than the others and not descended from them. He eventually moved to mainland Japan and taught his style. He eventually returned to Okinawa and opened a Dojo there. His son Kanei Uechi renamed the style Uechi Ryu after his farther's death in 1948.

This painting with a broad brush, I know. But does this bare any resemblence to what actually happened?

Uechi- ryu can be divided into a few different time periods. Thus the confusion because each period is different.
Kanbun studied in Fujian China, ok we know that. For lack of a better term in this discussion I will call those styles Chinese Quan systems. At that time most Quan did not have defined names. They could be regional, village or even family styles. The closest living style relative that I have found is the Tan family Respecting Tiger, Huzun Quan. Oral history says that kanbun studied under Shu shi wa (japanese name) or Zhou Zi He in Chinese. Zhou studied under Zheng Bu Su. Both of these teachers are very well known in China and both made alterations to the Huzun Quan style. It should be noted that Zhou was known to have studied multiple styles.
So why didn't Kanbun call his style Huzun Quan? But more questionable is that the style Zhou passed down still exists in China and the forms do not look like uechi- ryu. They are completely different. However like I said uechi forms DO LOOK LIKE Tan family Huzun Quan. So that's an interesting puzzle that I will leave open because to answer would be speculation.

Kanbun taught for many years in China. He taught Chinese martial arts in China, it was not Karate. It was traditional Chinese Quan style. History tells us that this was a tumultuous time. It was right after the Boxer rebellion and there was a public and government movement to prosecute Martial artists. It's probable that Kanbun left China for this reason.

From there he moved to Wakiyama around 1929 ( i would have to look it up for exact date) at this time Funakoshi, Motobu, Mabuni and maybe others were already in Japan teaching Okinawan Tode, later to be named Karate- jitsu and other variations. But there was Okinawan consensus to stop referring to their arts as "Chinese" and call it Karate. Understandable as Japan was ramping up for war with China as enemy number one.
Kanbun in a bold manner called his art Pangai-noon. Which was a Chinese term. Kanbun adamantly taught what he learned exactly as he was shown by his teacher. Kanbun made no alterations to the curriculum and its said he taught in the Chinese language. ( not sure if that's true). The only change was that he dropped the weapons and the Chinese herbal medicine aspects. Kanbun never taught publicly in Okinawa. That transfer of the art to Okinawa was done by his students and his son Kanei. Upon opening a school In Futenma they named it Uechi-Ryu karate.
Everyone was happy and there were several senior students that had studied with Kanbun for a long time before his death. But then.......
In 1958 karate had grown in popularity. Americans were interested. The Uechi organization started to look at the other karate styles and felt that changes were necessary to "keep up" with the times. Uechi ryu became heavily influenced by Goju and the shorin styles. Belts and ranks were handed out, new kata were developed. The style was standardized and more oversight from the Futenma Hombu dojo was involved. This is where the cracks in the current style began. But things still ran smooth under Kanei as head of the organization. Kanei passed away in 1991. The rest of that story is political and not really relevant here.
So what is uechi ryu, Chinese Quan or karate? It depends on the generation and what it is your actually doing.

 

[opr1945]

Thank you.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Uechi- ryu can be divided into a few different time periods. Thus the confusion because each period is different.
Kanbun studied in Fujian China, ok we know that. For lack of a better term in this discussion I will call those styles Chinese Quan systems. At that time most Quan did not have defined names. They could be regional, village or even family styles. The closest living style relative that I have found is the Tan family Respecting Tiger, Huzun Quan. Oral history says that kanbun studied under Shu shi wa (japanese name) or Zhou Zi He in Chinese. Zhou studied under Zheng Bu Su. Both of these teachers are very well known in China and both made alterations to the Huzun Quan style. It should be noted that Zhou was known to have studied multiple styles.
So why didn't Kanbun call his style Huzun Quan? But more questionable is that the style Zhou passed down still exists in China and the forms do not look like uechi- ryu. They are completely different. However like I said uechi forms DO LOOK LIKE Tan family Huzun Quan. So that's an interesting puzzle that I will leave open because to answer would be speculation.

Kanbun taught for many years in China. He taught Chinese martial arts in China, it was not Karate. It was traditional Chinese Quan style. History tells us that this was a tumultuous time. It was right after the Boxer rebellion and there was a public and government movement to prosecute Martial artists. It's probable that Kanbun left China for this reason.

From there he moved to Wakiyama around 1929 ( i would have to look it up for exact date) at this time Funakoshi, Motobu, Mabuni and maybe others were already in Japan teaching Okinawan Tode, later to be named Karate- jitsu and other variations. But there was Okinawan consensus to stop referring to their arts as "Chinese" and call it Karate. Understandable as Japan was ramping up for war with China as enemy number one.
Kanbun in a bold manner called his art Pangai-noon. Which was a Chinese term. Kanbun adamantly taught what he learned exactly as he was shown by his teacher. Kanbun made no alterations to the curriculum and its said he taught in the Chinese language. ( not sure if that's true). The only change was that he dropped the weapons and the Chinese herbal medicine aspects. Kanbun never taught publicly in Okinawa. That transfer of the art to Okinawa was done by his students and his son Kanei. Upon opening a school In Futenma they named it Uechi-Ryu karate.
Everyone was happy and there were several senior students that had studied with Kanbun for a long time before his death. But then.......
In 1958 karate had grown in popularity. Americans were interested. The Uechi organization started to look at the other karate styles and felt that changes were necessary to "keep up" with the times. Uechi ryu became heavily influenced by Goju and the shorin styles. Belts and ranks were handed out, new kata were developed. The style was standardized and more oversight from the Futenma Hombu dojo was involved. This is where the cracks in the current style began. But things still ran smooth under Kanei as head of the organization. Kanei passed away in 1991. The rest of that story is political and not really relevant here.
So what is uechi ryu, Chinese Quan or karate? It depends on the generation and what it is your actually doing.

Thanks for this synopsis of Uechi-ryu history that filled some holes in my knowledge.

 

[opr1945]

the hole in my knowledge is a cavern.

 

[Same Trick]

Uechi- ryu can be divided into a few different time periods. Thus the confusion because each period is different.
Kanbun studied in Fujian China, ok we know that. For lack of a better term in this discussion I will call those styles Chinese Quan systems. At that time most Quan did not have defined names. They could be regional, village or even family styles. The closest living style relative that I have found is the Tan family Respecting Tiger, Huzun Quan. Oral history says that kanbun studied under Shu shi wa (japanese name) or Zhou Zi He in Chinese. Zhou studied under Zheng Bu Su. Both of these teachers are very well known in China and both made alterations to the Huzun Quan style. It should be noted that Zhou was known to have studied multiple styles.
So why didn't Kanbun call his style Huzun Quan? But more questionable is that the style Zhou passed down still exists in China and the forms do not look like uechi- ryu. They are completely different. However like I said uechi forms DO LOOK LIKE Tan family Huzun Quan. So that's an interesting puzzle that I will leave open because to answer would be speculation.
Kanbun taught for many years in China. He taught Chinese martial arts in China, it was not Karate. It was traditional Chinese Quan style. History tells us that this was a tumultuous time. It was right after the Boxer rebellion and there was a public and government movement to prosecute Martial artists. It's probable that Kanbun left China for this reason.
From there he moved to Wakiyama around 1929 ( i would have to look it up for exact date) at this time Funakoshi, Motobu, Mabuni and maybe others were already in Japan teaching Okinawan Tode, later to be named Karate- jitsu and other variations. But there was Okinawan consensus to stop referring to their arts as "Chinese" and call it Karate. Understandable as Japan was ramping up for war with China as enemy number one.
Kanbun in a bold manner called his art Pangai-noon. Which was a Chinese term. Kanbun adamantly taught what he learned exactly as he was shown by his teacher. Kanbun made no alterations to the curriculum and its said he taught in the Chinese language. ( not sure if that's true). The only change was that he dropped the weapons and the Chinese herbal medicine aspects. Kanbun never taught publicly in Okinawa. That transfer of the art to Okinawa was done by his students and his son Kanei. Upon opening a school In Futenma they named it Uechi-Ryu karate.
Everyone was happy and there were several senior students that had studied with Kanbun for a long time before his death. But then.......
In 1958 karate had grown in popularity. Americans were interested. The Uechi organization started to look at the other karate styles and felt that changes were necessary to "keep up" with the times. Uechi ryu became heavily influenced by Goju and the shorin styles. Belts and ranks were handed out, new kata were developed. The style was standardized and more oversight from the Futenma Hombu dojo was involved. This is where the cracks in the current style began. But things still ran smooth under Kanei as head of the organization. Kanei passed away in 1991. The rest of that story is political and not really relevant here.
So what is uechi ryu, Chinese Quan or karate? It depends on the generation and what it is your actually doing.

 

[Same Trick]

Uechi- ryu can be divided into a few different time periods. Thus the confusion because each period is different.
Kanbun studied in Fujian China, ok we know that. For lack of a better term in this discussion I will call those styles Chinese Quan systems. At that time most Quan did not have defined names. They could be regional, village or even family styles. The closest living style relative that I have found is the Tan family Respecting Tiger, Huzun Quan. Oral history says that kanbun studied under Shu shi wa (japanese name) or Zhou Zi He in Chinese. Zhou studied under Zheng Bu Su. Both of these teachers are very well known in China and both made alterations to the Huzun Quan style. It should be noted that Zhou was known to have studied multiple styles.
So why didn't Kanbun call his style Huzun Quan? But more questionable is that the style Zhou passed down still exists in China and the forms do not look like uechi- ryu. They are completely different. However like I said uechi forms DO LOOK LIKE Tan family Huzun Quan. So that's an interesting puzzle that I will leave open because to answer would be speculation.

Kanbun taught for many years in China. He taught Chinese martial arts in China, it was not Karate. It was traditional Chinese Quan style. History tells us that this was a tumultuous time. It was right after the Boxer rebellion and there was a public and government movement to prosecute Martial artists. It's probable that Kanbun left China for this reason.

From there he moved to Wakiyama around 1929 ( i would have to look it up for exact date) at this time Funakoshi, Motobu, Mabuni and maybe others were already in Japan teaching Okinawan Tode, later to be named Karate- jitsu and other variations. But there was Okinawan consensus to stop referring to their arts as "Chinese" and call it Karate. Understandable as Japan was ramping up for war with China as enemy number one.
Kanbun in a bold manner called his art Pangai-noon. Which was a Chinese term. Kanbun adamantly taught what he learned exactly as he was shown by his teacher. Kanbun made no alterations to the curriculum and its said he taught in the Chinese language. ( not sure if that's true). The only change was that he dropped the weapons and the Chinese herbal medicine aspects. Kanbun never taught publicly in Okinawa. That transfer of the art to Okinawa was done by his students and his son Kanei. Upon opening a school In Futenma they named it Uechi-Ryu karate.
Everyone was happy and there were several senior students that had studied with Kanbun for a long time before his death. But then.......
In 1958 karate had grown in popularity. Americans were interested. The Uechi organization started to look at the other karate styles and felt that changes were necessary to "keep up" with the times. Uechi ryu became heavily influenced by Goju and the shorin styles. Belts and ranks were handed out, new kata were developed. The style was standardized and more oversight from the Futenma Hombu dojo was involved. This is where the cracks in the current style began. But things still ran smooth under Kanei as head of the organization. Kanei passed away in 1991. The rest of that story is political and not really relevant here.
So what is uechi ryu, Chinese Quan or karate? It depends on the generation and what it is your actually doing.

Kanbun taught for many years in China. He taught Chinese martial arts in China, it was not Karate. It was traditional Chinese Quan style. History tells us that this was a tumultuous time. It was right after the Boxer rebellion and there was a public and government movement to prosecute Martial artists. It's probable that Kanbun left China for this reason.
From there he moved to Wakiyama around 1929 ( i would have to look it up for exact date)

Hmm, yes it’s said Kanbun taught martial arts in China specifically in Nanjing.
Nanjing was to become a hub for Chinese martial arts since in 1928 the start of the “Nanjing Central Martial Arts Academy“ that brought together most of the well known martial arts masters so to promote Chinese martial arts to a wider national public…. Maybe that’s why Kanbun left China/Nanjing ?
Same time in Japan (as you mentioned) Okinawan such as Gichin Funakoshi, Choki Motubu, Kenya Mabuni was on mainland Japan promoting Okinawan Karate but in the spirit of it being a Japanese MA.
Maybe that was why Kanbun initially in Japan/Okinawa didn’t teach or even mentioned he knew any martial arts.
In China Kanbun was Japanese and found himself not fit into the new Chinese nationalist movement, while in Japan his mastery of “pure” Chinese martial arts was not fit with Japans nationals movement.