On throwing weapons.

[nark0sys]

How likely would it be that a practitioner of ninjutsu in ancient times, when caught, would attempt to maim, (or with a lucky shot) kill their potential opponent with a throwing weapon? Or is it more likely they would switch to another concealed weapon that may do more damage?

Secondly, if they were to so do so, which would be a more common usage, the shuriken or the kunai?

/ducks for the incoming flamage!

 

[Stealthy]

How likely would it be that a practitioner of ninjutsu in ancient times, when caught

Ninja don't get caught....even just by surprise.

 

[Chris Parker]

How likely would it be that a practitioner of ninjutsu in ancient times, when caught, would attempt to maim, (or with a lucky shot) kill their potential opponent with a throwing weapon? Or is it more likely they would switch to another concealed weapon that may do more damage?

Secondly, if they were to so do so, which would be a more common usage, the shuriken or the kunai?

/ducks for the incoming flamage!

Okay, let's look at this from a few angles.

First off, weapons such as Shuriken are not exclusive to practitioners of ninjutsu, they were also very much samurai weapons (and, let's not forget that "ninja" were often samurai themselves, just working in a certain fashion at that time). Next, these weapons were not really designed to maim, or kill, and were not suited to such usage at all. They were primarily distractions in order to either provide an opening to go in for a finishing action (such as in Negishi Ryu, a samurai Shuriken system, or in the classic story of Musashi against a Kusarigama wielding opponent... he threw a short sword or other small blade into their chest when he couldn't get past the chain, then moved in and employed his sword to kill the other warrior). So how likely? Not likely at all, really.

The Kunai itself is not a Shuriken, nor typically thrown. There were forms of Shuriken which were known as Kunaigata, used in a few systems, but they were not really Kunai, just named for the shape of them.

Finally, you need to understand what the primary reason for the use or employment of such weapons would be. Within the Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan traditions, the best known use of Shuriken is from the Togakure Ryu, although it also features in Koto Ryu, Kukishinden Ryu, and a little in some others, such as the origin story of Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Within Togakure are the only formal kata for the weapon, though, with it being either Kuden or Henka in the other ones. Within Togakure Ryu, the employment of Shuriken (Senban in this case) is pretty much exclusively for escape, so Shuriken should be looked at (from a ninjutsu perspective) as a distraction primarily, not a "damaging" attack.

Hope that helps clear some things up.

 

[nark0sys]

Thank-you sensei.

 

[Chris Parker]

Not a problem. Just a note, the formality isn't needed here... but do feel free to let me know who you are (by PM if you like), just so I know who I'm talking to!

PS You'll see a lot more of this type of stuff from next month onwards, as we cover Togakure Ryu.... some rather interesting material coming up.....

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

some shuriken like the Yagyu ryu juji shuriken that have long and thin points have excellent penetration. aswell as bo shuriken. there is a story I read somewere that a shuriken master can pierce a oak tree with a bo shuriken like 1 inch or something. I know that when you throw a bo shuriken really hard into a wood target it can be really hard to remove. sometimes you may even need tools to pry them out.
The Senban shuriken of Togakure Ryu are really square shaped and wouldn't really have the same penetration.
Shuriken are defiantly dangerous. not as accurate and powerful as a bow and arrow but still can do some serous damage.

 

[Chris Parker]

The juji shuriken of Yagyu Ryu have a better potential for penetration due to their design than, say, Togakure Ryu senban blades, but the senban blades are more likely to hit in the right position. When it comes to penetrating an inch into wood, that's pretty normal for things like bo shuriken, as the tree (or wooden target) doesn't move and "give" the way a body does, so the penetration is significantly deeper there than in combative use. And in all cases, the best and most common use for shuriken of all types is distraction.

 

[Indagator]

Sometimes we train on bark chips, like at a playground for example (at night when no wee kiddies are around of course!). One of the first times we did so we were going through some scenario training and I was to attack my instructor with the dummy knife but as soon as I produced it he leant away, scooped up a fistful of bark and threw it into my face, then moved in behind this action and deftly disarmed and disabled me.
It was during this time that it was explained to me that shuriken are often used to distract or disguise other actions rather than primarily wound - I thought it was a good little side-bar lesson to work into that class

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

thanks Indigator I really loved that example. I like how it is the strategy that is important and can be transferred into modern self defense like bark for shuriken and even dirt in place of Metsubishi. That is very important to me because Its the philosophy that I can take with me and for me it is the essence of ninjutsu to use what you have at the time. and being resourceful. since we don't carry swords around and carry concealed weapons around because this would be illegal. its the strategy that is useful for me.

I also find it interesting to compare different weapons strength and weaknesses. and how its design influence its use. and shuriken is the same for me. I think the design of the togakure sanban shuriken is meant for easier concealment and better to carry. which is important for shinobi. and its thin design and shape means you can carry a lot and throw them in a bunch. good for when your escaping and want to quickly keep people at distance without aiming to much. and the design is good so you can hold them in the left hand and use the thumb to throw them one after the other. good for when you have to keep multiple enemies at bay.
You could not do this well with the juji shuriken.
that or it was convenient at the time to make shuriken out of nail removers at the time and the shape had nothing to do with it

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, the origin of the Togakure Ryu Senban Shuriken is said to be a development from Kagi Nuki (a carpentry tool for removing nails, with the central hole being placed around and underneath the head of the nail, and the bulk of the item being used to provide a fulcrum to pull the nail out). For the record, most of the different forms of shaken (star-shaped shuriken) were very light and thin, with some early concepts being heavier rock-like items, known as tsubute. In terms of being able to throw multiples, where did you get the idea that the Yagyu form wouldn't work for that? The holding and throwing method is a bit different, but both are able to do so.