NTC OPFOR Going to Iraq

[PeachMonkey]

See:

http://www.intel-dump.com/archives/archive_2004_10_14.shtml#1098022068

As the poster notes, this is extremely ominous... one of the most notable reasons for the Army's warfighting prowess is the Army's practice of rotating units through Ft. Irwin's National Training Center for realistic, difficult wargaming against an extremely talented, experienced opponent.

The fact that this opponent force is being deployed to Iraq not only speaks to how badly strained the Army is right now, but to the desperate measures that they're being pushed to -- sending the NTC OPFOR really is like eating your own seed corn, to steal the poster's simile.

On the other hand, the 11th ACR is a storied unit. Of course, its specialties have nothing whatsoever to do with counter-insurgency... ack.

For more on this elite organization, see:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/11acr.htm
http://www.irwin.army.mil/11acr/

 

[Sapper6]

having the opportunity to "play" OPFOR is no different than any other duty station. granted it's much harder to attain this position, but in the end, it's just a job. troop rotation at NTC should have no bearing as to the current operational status of that particular unit or our military as a whole. they've been doing this for ages.

i had the opportunity to be OPFOR at JRTC at Ft. Polk a couple years ago. it was a great experience indeed. for most soldiers on the OPFOR, the standard rotation was 24 months. i stayed for 18 and went back to my line unit. again, don't freak out about the OPFOR rotations. it's completely normal :asian:

 

[PeachMonkey]

The thing that's somewhat less-than-normal about this is the rotation of a National Guard unit into the OPFOR position at NTC, and the rotation of an experienced OPFOR unit in whole into a combat position.

The simple fact that a non-regular unit would be taking on the OPFOR position shows the extent to which the US Army is currently stretched.

Moreover, the NTC OPFOR units spend a far longer time in rotation in that position, and gain more experience in expertise in that training position. At a time of extreme strain to the armed forces, reducing the quality of OPFOR units at NTC seems to be an odd decision.

 

[PeachMonkey]

I'll also point out that the 11th ACR has served as NTC OPFOR for ten years.

This loss of expertise is far more significant than the "completely normal" rotations at the Joint Readiness Training Center mentioned by Sapper6.

 

[Sapper6]

you are correct. the 11th ACR has maintained the role of OPFOR for the past 10 years. yes, that UNIT as a whole has, BUT, the soldiers themselves are rotated, not the unit.

it's also important to mention that it's not the OPFOR soldiers at NTC that is so significant, but rather, the battle strategies employed. these will not change but the soldiers who carry those out will.

 

[PeachMonkey]

The strategies will not likely change, but the level of expertise with which they are executed cannot help but change, at least for a while.

The 11th ACR maintains organic knowledge and experience that they will no longer be in a position to directly hand down to trainee units, and the replacement unit will need a significant period to reach a similar level of effectiveness.

Given the tempo of operations in Iraq (counterinsurgency, something we're traditionally quite terrible at, rather than maneuver warfare, something the 11th ACR are masters at), I'm not sure that the benefits gained by sending the 11th ACR will outweigh these downsides.

 

[Flatlander]

For the members of that unit that survive, having gone to Iraq will go a long way in helping them develop as soldiers. This will only be a positive addidtion to their experience that they can take back to the training grounds later.

As well, I would have to say that at this point, its better that the government mobilize all of their volunteer forces before talking about instituting conscription.

 

[loki09789]

you are correct. the 11th ACR has maintained the role of OPFOR for the past 10 years. yes, that UNIT as a whole has, BUT, the soldiers themselves are rotated, not the unit.

it's also important to mention that it's not the OPFOR soldiers at NTC that is so significant, but rather, the battle strategies employed. these will not change but the soldiers who carry those out will.

Personally, I don't see this as a big deal because the 11th has been using soviet doctrine maneuver warfare and, more recently, applied some terrorist/guerilla tacitcs as part of their SOP to be a good training partner for the guest units. THey are going to have some overlap with the new unit taking over the mission to get them up to speed. They will probably have some of the leadership/nco support stay/reassigned to the incoming unit to 'supervise activities' and ensure that quality doesn't dip too far.

I would be more concerned with the 11ths potential performance in a live theater given their personal application of these non standard doctrinal practices for so long. They may have a good perspective on the situation.

The BIGGEST training benefit of participation at a JRTC or NTC type of environment is for the individuals to simulate as closely as possible the stress/danger/fatigue of combat and find out what it takes to keep on going and at the leadership level to really clarify/tighten and rehearse unit level command and control issues in 'the sandbox.'

There are expectations and very canned training outlines in some of these NTC/JRTC scenarios and it doesn't really matter who is playing OPFOR as long as they are basically trained and know what problem they are suppose to introduce to the guest unit so that the guest unit can practice solving it.

 

[AaronLucia]

Having been killed by OPFOR a few times, i know they can get the job done.

 

[Sapper6]

great replies all. :asian:

 

[Sapper6]

I would be more concerned with the 11ths potential performance in a live theater given their personal application of these non standard doctrinal practices for so long. They may have a good perspective on the situation.

great point there. which reinforces the notion that operational rotation is necessary and remains normal activity .

 

[rmcrobertson]

Yes, and pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

 

[Sapper6]

robert, what on earth are you smokin' tonite? it really doesnt suprise me all that much for you to believe there's some kind of elaborate conspiracy theory behind this all. you might want to stick to the threads you know something about :idunno:

:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

I feel sure that you're right. A government presently dominated by wealthy, upper-class white guys who mostly ducked military service, and who have proved in the past to be utterly cynical about the way they use and discard soldiers, would never ever ever use the military merely to further their own ends, regardless of what's best for the country. Nope. Never happen.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

 

[Sapper6]

robert, to you, everything is wrong. the practice of troop rotation at military training centers has been going on since since the beginning of the miltary. for you to make such a reckless remark like you did only shows you know nothing of the situtation or the inner workings of our military training doctrine. take a look at history. how many of all those past presidents can you show me were war-dodgers...? very few of them. it seems that for you to make a statement like that, you have more of a problem with the presidency itself, and not the man in the position.

this thread addresses a specific topic, a topic i highly doubt you could contribute useful knowledge to. although rather humorous, i dont really see how what you say has anything to do with troop rotation at NTC.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Ah, the old acronym/initials ploy, beloved of Tom Clancy readers the world over.

After all, you must be right. The mere fact that this particular group of war gamers has never left their training command before, that a remarkable number of military experts have repeatedly testified that the military's stretched too thin, that the advice of experts such as Colin Powell was ignored before the war started, that the guys who started this splendid little war mostly all avoided service, why, this has nothing to do with nothing.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

 

[Sapper6]

oh yes, more wisdom from robert.

acronym/initials ploy...? allow me to enlighten you: NTC = National Training Center. OPFOR = OPposing FORce, aka, enemy. that's what us real soldiers call it and that's how it is known throughout the military, not Tom Clancy readers idiot.

 

[Flatlander]

=============
Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT Moderator-
=============

 

[rmcrobertson]

Dude, I read Tom Clancy---and I already knew what the initials meant.

 

[Sapper6]

Dude, I read Tom Clancy---and I already knew what the initials meant.

really? from your usage of the word ploy, i wouldnt have thought so.

ploy- n. a manuever or scheme to outwit an opponent.

well anyway, glad to hear you already knew that :idunno:

seeing your a Clancy fan, of course it wouldnt be that hard-off for you to believe that such governmental plots exist behind the scenes of what would appear completely normal military activity, hence, your "man behind the curtain" reference. well, you can sleep well tonite robert knowing it's OK.

of course the military is understaffed and it always will be. and it will remain that way so long as its countries citizens belittle and desecrate their actions abroad and forget about all the good they are doing. i believe the media has cast a certain light of negativity on our troops serving abroad in theatres of combat. someone dies of a heat stroke and it's blast all over the airways and every network. we live in tumultuous times, a time of war. people die in war. media outlets opposing the war will milk every death they hear of. speaking out negatively about our military will have a bearing on troop recruitment. according to these folks our military is "failing" its objectives, and who would want to join a "failing" military or any other employer for that matter.

the man behind the curtain is a shadow of your vivid imagination :asian: