New Student: when will you quit?

Rick Franklin

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That wasn't a 'personal attack' it was an observation made because of your seeming inability to not find something wrong with every place you have trained. Think about it, one of you, many martial arts places but it's never you who is the problem...…….. I'd suggest you don't go in with an empty cup.

Actually, it's the definition of a personal attack. Instead of providing evidence against my comments, you blame all my views on me personally. Here you go:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/personal_attack
 

Rat

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He pulled out a gun and shot the guy. Martial arts wouldn't have helped the boyfriend there.

TECHNICALLY, the craft of marksmanship with firearms is a martial art. I can get behind the sentiment though, weapons exist, takes a certain mindset and skill set to deal with them. (and they instantly put someone on a higher playing field than someone without it, which is why people carry them when lawfully allowed to for self defence)

And to be fair, he wouldn't have gotten shot if he didn't knock the person down and act in a threatening deminer past that. (i think i know the situation being cited and it was cleared as a lawful shooting, further i think the girlfriend instigated it)


I can get behind the sentiment that it takes some level of adjustment for modern martial arts to work in the real world though. As lets be fair, some of the nessisiary skills arent covered in standard practice. And unless you are fighting a professional boxer you don't exactly need a high level of combative skill to deal with them.

Some martial arts exist to be practiced for your life, like the common statement kung fu is for life. Its not purely combative, some might be focused on the art part of martial art than the martial part, but the scope is to keep you healthy and fit as well a provide some martial training. Now that i think about it, krav maga might have been altered to do a similar thing to kung fu just based on military style combatives, so you can practice it for a long period of time to keep healthy and such. (civilian version of course) By all means some do things better than others.

this might just be a rehash of what other people have replied to this with, so apologies if so. I also didnt read the original points before this fully, so TL;DR moment. :p
 

Rick Franklin

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Mate, I haven't 'heard' but I have had to take statements and deal with so called 'one punch' incidents. Only one died luckily. Trust me, I've seen and dealt with all sort of fights, I've walked nay run away from fights and I've picked up the pieces after fights. I used to work with people who loved a fight, who often had people pick on them just to start a fight and some who would fight among themselves just for the craic.

I didn't want to assume your level of experience but I also didn't want to belabor a point that seems pretty well known.


Really, what do you actually think we learn in martial arts? It's not all punching and kicking, we teach awareness as well as how to avoid being hit ( I always like that bit, most people do) and how to avoid altercations to start with.

I know that's not all it is, I've trained it. One big eye opener for me was sparring against multiple opponents. Suddenly you realize that laser-focus you've developed in single-opponent sparring is a liability as you tend to ignore the other threats around you. It's a whole different ballgame. And multiple attackers is always a threat in real-life violence.

And? that proves martial arts doesn't work does it? or does it prove there are idiots who drink too much or who are just complete morons. Martial artists don't go around brawling which is basically what you are describing. The fights are rarely random and usually can be avoided by sensible people. Muggings and attacks are a completely different thing.

What it proves is that there are no rules. You can't go into a street fight assuming that the other guy is looking for a fair fight, to prove his mettle against a similarly weighed opponent. The other guy just wants to win whether he's swinging a sucker-punch or pulling a knife or hitting you from behind or whatever else he can do to make sure he comes out on top. No one (except maybe martial artists if you count competitions) goes into a fight he thinks he's going to lose, right? You're not going to pick a fight with the guy a foot taller than you and 50 pounds of muscle more than you have.

I tried to provide evidence from a lot of different kinds of real-life violence to illustrate my point. Not that martial arts doesn't work but that you can't depend on it because of all the ways real-life violence can spiral out of control. If some stranger challenges you, it's foolhardy to put up your dukes and start throwing punches. People die doing that. And that's why self-defense was never a motivation for me studying martial arts.

If he'd been a martial artist he would have assessed the situation, knowing that it was more than likely that man wasn't on his own and even if it makes him look like a coward he would have taken his wife out of the bar and away from there. Discretion is the better part of valour.

This is my whole point. You don't need martial arts training for discretion. Just common sense.
 

Rick Franklin

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TECHNICALLY, the craft of marksmanship with firearms is a martial art. I can get behind the sentiment though, weapons exist, takes a certain mindset and skill set to deal with them. (and they instantly put someone on a higher playing field than someone without it, which is why people carry them when lawfully allowed to for self defence)

Yeah, sure I guess it is a martial art. But you can probably get a gun, learn how to shoot it and get the necessary licenses without anywhere near the effort it takes to get competent at a martial art. In my mind, if you're worried about self-defense, that makes a lot more sense. When I took tang soo do, it wasn't to defend myself, it was because it was fun.

And to be fair, he wouldn't have gotten shot if he didn't knock the person down and act in a threatening deminer past that. (i think i know the situation being cited and it was cleared as a lawful shooting, further i think the girlfriend instigated it)

Yeah, that's the incident and I agree completely he wouldn't have gotten shot. But that's the danger when you decide to start throwing your martial skills around. Better to back down, run away, call the police.

I can get behind the sentiment that it takes some level of adjustment for modern martial arts to work in the real world though. As lets be fair, some of the nessisiary skills arent covered in standard practice. And unless you are fighting a professional boxer you don't exactly need a high level of combative skill to deal with them.

Exactly. You don't need a high level of skill if it does come down to a one-on-one fight.
 

Tez3

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You can't go into a street fight assuming that the other guy is looking for a fair fight, to prove his mettle against a similarly weighed opponent.


I'll correct that, you don't go into a fight full stop. You really are watching too many films if you think anyone has fights like that. Do you know what so called 'street fights' are? They are football hooligans looking to smash the other team's supporters, they are drunks angry with the world, they are insecure men who need to act big, they are drunks, they are bullies. There are never people looking for fair fights.

No one (except maybe martial artists if you count competitions) goes into a fight he thinks he's going to lose, right? You're not going to pick a fight with the guy a foot taller than you and 50 pounds of muscle more than you have.


You seem to think these are elective fights. And yes I've known people pick a fight with someone bigger and stronger than them, as I said alcohol makes idiots of people.


If some stranger challenges you, it's foolhardy to put up your dukes and start throwing punches. People die doing that. And that's why self-defense was never a motivation for me studying martial arts.


If someone challenges you and you take them up on it, it is NOT self defence is it.
 

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Rick Franklin

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I'll correct that, you don't go into a fight full stop. You really are watching too many films if you think anyone has fights like that. Do you know what so called 'street fights' are? They are football hooligans looking to smash the other team's supporters, they are drunks angry with the world, they are insecure men who need to act big, they are drunks, they are bullies. There are never people looking for fair fights.

I completely agree. This is what I'm trying to say. Using your martial art skills in the street is a bad idea.

You seem to think these are elective fights. And yes I've known people pick a fight with someone bigger and stronger than them, as I said alcohol makes idiots of people.

Okay sure, there are some guys out there who'll pick a fight with anyone. But like you said, generally, "There are never people looking for fair fights."

By elective fights, I guess I'm suggesting you can choose whether to get pulled in or not. You can back down. You can get out of there. You can avoid escalation. You don't have to spit in the guy's eye or insult his favorite sports team. And here I'm just talking about the monkey dance stuff. If it's a mugging or something like that, you can bet it's not a fair fight. Trying to punch out some guy who's mugging you--now that sounds like a bad idea to me.

So if it doesn't make sense to use martial arts in a brawl or when you're getting mugged, when does it make sense? In the dojo. In the ring. In the cage.

If someone challenges you and you take them up on it, it is NOT self defence is it.

I agree completely.
 

Rick Franklin

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Well sorry but some people do want to train seriously. If these guys are training for a competition they do want to focus on training not acting like clowns. When I'm rolling in bjj I'm focused on the roll because 1 I want to get better and 2 I'm focused on stopping a guy choking me out or putting me in a submission so yeah I'm not cracking jokes while trying to defend against submissions. But in drills yeah you can have a joke sometimes but rolling no that's the time to work

I understand what you're saying. I guess as a novice it didn't work well for me. In Tang Soo Do, we could keep talking while sparring even if sparring hard. You can congratulate the other guy on a good hit. If you keep getting him with a back fist, you can mention his hands are low. Often there'd be a disparity between opponents so you weren't going as hard as you can. Adult vs teenager. Black belt vs green belt. It was friendly and no ego involved.

This one guy I knew had this great attack he'd use, leaping in with a back-fist after raising his leg to fake the kick. Guys wouldn't know what to defend as he collided with you and invariably he'd get a shot in. A bit of a cheap-shot if you ask me but it worked so I can't knock it. Anyway it became the joke when you used it, like "he got me with the Bob Special".

When I tried BJJ, I didn't know anything. So if some guy gets me with an armbar, I'm interested to talk about it. What did I do wrong? Is there a counter I could have tried? Or this guy is trying to get a rear naked choke on me but I'm trying this defense I read about in "Jiu-jitsu University" and he can't seem to lock it in. I want to talk about that afterwards. Did it work? Could I have done something better? Isn't that how you get better at this stuff?

Instead they took a sink-or-swim approach. Pretty much any counter I came up with, I got from YouTube because I wasn't getting anything from the classes. They'd get me with a submission and that night I'd be looking it up on YouTube to see what I can do about it. If I knew what I was doing, like the basics, then sure you can just play it out as intense as you like. But as a beginner, it didn't work for me.

Probably it was just a different teaching style that clashed with what I was used to.
 

Tez3

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I completely agree. This is what I'm trying to say. Using your martial art skills in the street is a bad idea.
So if it doesn't make sense to use martial arts in a brawl or when you're getting mugged, when does it make sense? In the dojo. In the ring. In the cage.


I really don't think you understand martial arts in the slightest. I don't think you even know what they are.

You certainly have some weird romantic idea of street fights, perhaps it's because you watch too many fictional encounters and play too many video games. You seem to think I'm making personal attacks and 'blaming you' , trust me, if I were you'd know. What I can't understand is why you are blaming martial arts for your apparent inability to understand what is being taught or how they are used. You seem to think it's martial arts that are the problem which indicates to me a lack of understanding, you say that martial arts have 'baggage' I suggest that so many different places and different styles are not the ones with the problem. The above posts prove my point. At no point would I say don't use martial arts.

Do you know what 'martial arts skills' are? Why do you think martial arts and fighting are two different things? Why wouldn't you use martial arts and the self defence skills to defend yourself? What would you do instead?
 

Rick Franklin

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I really don't think you understand martial arts in the slightest. I don't think you even know what they are.

You certainly have some weird romantic idea of street fights, perhaps it's because you watch too many fictional encounters and play too many video games. You seem to think I'm making personal attacks and 'blaming you' , trust me, if I were you'd know. What I can't understand is why you are blaming martial arts for your apparent inability to understand what is being taught or how they are used. You seem to think it's martial arts that are the problem which indicates to me a lack of understanding, you say that martial arts have 'baggage' I suggest that so many different places and different styles are not the ones with the problem. The above posts prove my point. At no point would I say don't use martial arts.

Do you know what 'martial arts skills' are? Why do you think martial arts and fighting are two different things? Why wouldn't you use martial arts and the self defence skills to defend yourself? What would you do instead?

Okay, we're just talking in circles now. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
 

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I understand what you're saying. I guess as a novice it didn't work well for me. In Tang Soo Do, we could keep talking while sparring even if sparring hard. You can congratulate the other guy on a good hit. If you keep getting him with a back fist, you can mention his hands are low. Often there'd be a disparity between opponents so you weren't going as hard as you can. Adult vs teenager. Black belt vs green belt. It was friendly and no ego involved.

This one guy I knew had this great attack he'd use, leaping in with a back-fist after raising his leg to fake the kick. Guys wouldn't know what to defend as he collided with you and invariably he'd get a shot in. A bit of a cheap-shot if you ask me but it worked so I can't knock it. Anyway it became the joke when you used it, like "he got me with the Bob Special".

When I tried BJJ, I didn't know anything. So if some guy gets me with an armbar, I'm interested to talk about it. What did I do wrong? Is there a counter I could have tried? Or this guy is trying to get a rear naked choke on me but I'm trying this defense I read about in "Jiu-jitsu University" and he can't seem to lock it in. I want to talk about that afterwards. Did it work? Could I have done something better? Isn't that how you get better at this stuff?

Instead they took a sink-or-swim approach. Pretty much any counter I came up with, I got from YouTube because I wasn't getting anything from the classes. They'd get me with a submission and that night I'd be looking it up on YouTube to see what I can do about it. If I knew what I was doing, like the basics, then sure you can just play it out as intense as you like. But as a beginner, it didn't work for me.

Probably it was just a different teaching style that clashed with what I was used to.
Firstly talking while doing stand up sparring is extremely dangerous.

Second the guy you're rolling with wants to train. He submits you he either moves on to the next person or he carries on the roll so he can get his mat time in. He doesn't want to spend half the round teaching you how to escape an arm bar. If you want to ask after class or discuss it during the drilling part of the class. Also the last thing someone wants to do when rolling is have a discussion about YouTube videos you've watched in the middle of a roll. Ask at the appropriate. People are there to train. The way to get better at grappling is to grapple not talking about grappling
 

Headhunter

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I completely agree. This is what I'm trying to say. Using your martial art skills in the street is a bad idea.



Okay sure, there are some guys out there who'll pick a fight with anyone. But like you said, generally, "There are never people looking for fair fights."

By elective fights, I guess I'm suggesting you can choose whether to get pulled in or not. You can back down. You can get out of there. You can avoid escalation. You don't have to spit in the guy's eye or insult his favorite sports team. And here I'm just talking about the monkey dance stuff. If it's a mugging or something like that, you can bet it's not a fair fight. Trying to punch out some guy who's mugging you--now that sounds like a bad idea to me.

So if it doesn't make sense to use martial arts in a brawl or when you're getting mugged, when does it make sense? In the dojo. In the ring. In the cage.



I agree completely.
Using my martial arts in a fight is a bad idea?

Okay so if I spend a few years learning how to throw a good jab, cross combo and how to use to use my hips to get the most power and get good extension on my punches and keep my hands up guard my head. I do all that then when I have to defend myself you think I should just throw arm punches using no rotation and punch with my thumb tucked into my things and my chin completely exposed? You reckon that's a better idea?
 

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I'm saying the concept of a street fight is a myth and to assume you're ever getting into a street fight, in the conventional sense, is dangerous. It ignores the very real possibility that guy can pull a knife while you're trying to choke him out. Or he can pull out a gun and shoot you after you knock him down. Or maybe you'll be beating him to a pulp when his friends show up. Being in great shape and a great martial artist doesn't help you with those situations. It's not worth putting your life on the line. Ever.
Which concept of a street fight are you talking about? I've heard several. Some are myths, and some are more or less based on what actually happens in a specific subset of "attacks".
 

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Once I saw police footage of a cop who was knocked over by a handcuffed perp. He knocked his head against the floor and was paralyzed for life. Martial arts wouldn't have helped him there.
I'd argue good grappling experience would have made him less likely to get knocked over, and more likely to take the fall in a way that protects him.
 

gpseymour

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But you can probably get a gun, learn how to shoot it and get the necessary licenses without anywhere near the effort it takes to get competent at a martial art.
To a level where you can competently use it, under high stress, in a hurry, around other people, with a moving target trying to hurt you?

That takes a LOT more effort than learning to punch someone well.
 

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Tez3

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Okay, we're just talking in circles now. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.


I'm not disagreeing with you though, I'm asking questions in order to understand your point of view. It does seem as if you are ducking out of answering, which is odd.
 
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