Need advice for 7* mantis school

[ockempo]

Hi everyone. I found this 7* mantis school I was thinking about signing up with. I've always wanted to study mantis because I heard it was great for in-fighting techniques. Here's the scoop, they want $195 up front which includes a uniform and then they have a 6 month contract @ $100 a month.

Does this sound like a good deal? I thought reputable schools didn't do the contract thing.

 

[arnisador]

It's on the expensive side, but not clearly unreasonable. Praying mantis is a good system, in my opinion (which is based on rather limited experience). How many classes per week do you get? Are there also testing fees?

For contracts, you might also look at this thread:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10098

For a commercial school they may well be a necessary evil.

 

[7starmantis]

It is a little on the expensive side, but not if its good quality instruction of 7*. And I agree that contracts sometimes are a neccesary evil.

Do you mind if I ask the name of the school or instructor, I may be able to shed some light on that as well for you.

7sm

 

[ockempo]

Well, when you are in the beginning stages you are allowed to go 2 times per week. But they also said that it depends upon the person as well and how well they pick up on the system. And yes, there are testing fees. This school didn't use to have belts but they wanted to be able to monitor student progress and I think people like to have goals or they get bored. I kinda like the sash system that kung fu uses.

Arnisador said:
"For a commercial school they may well be a necessary evil."

Aren't almost all schools commercial to some extent nowadays?

 

[ockempo]

Here's the school

http://www.californiamartialarts.com

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by ockempo
Here's the school

http://www.californiamartialarts.com

That's my Sifu's Sihing's school, if for some reason I was unable to train under my Sifu, Sifu Cheng would be the next person in line, I would move to Irvine to train with him.

His school is a sister school of ours in the Kung Fu Exchange under Sifu Raymond Fogg, Sifu Cheng is a great teacher and is extremely knowledgeable with high skill level. He and my sifu grew up together doing Kung Fu since they were 10 years old.

All I can say is that you would be learning very good kung fu. his Sihing students are good friends of mine as well, we try to keep a family atmosphere as much as possible between schools in the Kung Fu Exchange. They are going to be in a wedding with me in January for a couple students from my school.

If you decide to train there, I'm sure I will be seeing you sooner or later, good luck in your decision and training.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

So how did you liek the school?
Did you get to try a class or anything?

7sm

 

[ockempo]

Thanks for all the help you guys. Well, first I'd like to say that I'm really dissapointed about my visit to californiamartialarts. When I found out that they taught 7* mantis I was thrilled that there was a school in the local area that taught it.

When I first called the school I asked if I could observe a class, they told me sure come on down. When I got there I was kept behind a partition and basically spoke with this guy about lineage and other things and really didn't get to see much of anything. I thought that was somewhat strange because that should be reserved for students. Ultimately I decided not to join this school because it just wasn't what I was looking for because of these reasons:

1 - They wanted a $195 upfront fee which I thought is extravagant

2 - They want you to sign a minimum 6 month contract at 100.00 a month. I don't like contracts and prefer paying on a month to month basis. That way if I am not receiving quality instruction, I can leave at will. Not to say whether they give quality instruction or not, "I don't know".

3 - Beginners are allowed to come to class 2 times a week. Classes are 1/2 an hour long. For $100 a month that is way to steep for me to pay. Since I didn't get to see the class, I would assume that the first 10 minutes were spent stretching and getting loose so that means that I get 20 minutes of instruction.

4 - I was dissapointed when told that Sifu Cheng does not teach there all that often because he is a doctor and is busy. I was told that black sash students taught most of the time. Again I don't know, but I'm sure their black sash students are good, but for that kind of money I would think that Sifu would be teaching most of the time and using black sashes for "assistance".

5 - This thought always stayed in the back of my mind as to why at their web site they never make mention of their lineage or art that they teach, which is 7*. Their web site is very generic and they don't even mention anything about kung fu as well. They just speak about martial arts in general. Are they not proud of their 7* lineage and history? I would be.

7starmantis, I understand that you're a student of Sifu Fogg at his school in Texas. I have seen your web site and I think it is great. As soon as you see the site you know right away it is 7* that they teach and they are proud to reveal that. I mean, why would you do anything else. Why would someone who puts up a web site for their school not claim what style they teach?

Anyway, I'm really dissapointed and will have to keep looking for a school.

 

[7starmantis]

I'm sorry you ran into those problems. It isn't that they are not proud of their lineage, but they are trying to be appealing to students who do not know anything about kung fu at all.
They are very commercial and I guess that comes off a little in their presentation.
I do hope you are able to find a good school you fit well in, and I hope this hasn't turned you off to 7* mantis kung fu. Its too bad your not in texas, we would love to have you train with us.

7sm

 

[ockempo]

For sure, I wish I was in Texas or maybe even down in San Diego which is south of Orange County, they have a lot of kung fu schools. For some reason OC lacks Mantis and Wing Chun schools. Anway, you're very lucky and I wish you the very best in pursuit of the mantis style.

Take care

 

[7starmantis]

We have a school in Hollywood if your up for the drive!

Good luck with your search, and don't settle, keep searching until you find the school you are completely comfortable in.

7sm

 

[Travis Whitman]

I read this thread yesterday and prepared a long response addressing both Dr. Cheng's school/business practice and the scarcity of mantis in OC. While I waited to be registered, I reconsidered my thoughts on the matter.

If you want to play at the kung fu arts then there are 50 yellow pages in the phone book-shop all you want. Knock yourself out. I closed down my mantis school because I could no longer be a used car salesman type of school owner and I could no longer waste my time on unappreciative dabblers. Unfortunately the dozen or so good students I had, now have to make due somewhere else, as much as this bothers me I can't fork over 5 or 6 thousand dollars every month to let them train.

I am sure that Dr. Cheng is just as unhappy about the situation as you are. He would probably be happier teaching without having to charge an arm and a leg, but our sue happy society has jacked up rent, utilities, insurance and every other cost of presenting a contribution (like mantis) to the public.

In light of this my opinion is you should be happy that you can decide to study with his group, because no other serious martial arts teacher will 'tryout' for your business. As a professional sifu I don't impress you with my credentials - you impress me with hard work. This post is not directed to anyone in particular in this forum or otherwise nor do expect to change many minds about the circus that kung fu has become. Maybe 1 or 2 people will read this and reconsider what they are looking for in the kung fu arts.

 

[Cruentus]

As a professional sifu I don't impress you with my credentials - you impress me with hard work.

I can relate (I am not a Kung Fu Artist, but its all the same).

Yet, with all the frauds out there, students need to at least know that you are legitimite, no? Especially in an Gung Fu where frauds are a dime or dozen.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
I can relate (I am not a Kung Fu Artist, but its all the same).

Yet, with all the frauds out there, students need to at least know that you are legitimite, no? Especially in an Gung Fu where frauds are a dime or dozen.

This is a serious delima I think. My sifu started training with his sifu when he was 9 years old. He said that when someone would come to the school and ask to see some kung fu to determine how good sigung was, he would say, "ok, here you go". sit down, and light a cigarette. If they didn't want to learn good kung fu, they left. When he trained in Hong Kong, the first hour of class was horse stance. If you didn't want to learn kung fu you didn't stay and do horse stance for an hour.

This is hard for me to understand. Our society is at a place where we do not trust anyone. I can tell you from working for my sifu, that the insurance and legal fees we pay to stay safe (not including the rent and such) is out of this world high!

There is a line to be walked, but it is hard for everyone to agree on where that line is. We dont walk into an expensive resturant and assume their food is crappy because they charge exhorbitant prices for it and wont let you eat some for free before ordering. I know this is not a good analogy, but the principle stays true.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

As far as proving your legitimacy, how does one do that? What would show a non-MAist off the street that a school is legitimate?

7sm

 

[ockempo]

7starmantis said:

As far as proving your legitimacy, how does one do that? What would show a non-MAist off the street that a school is legitimate?

One thing a legitimate school should do is not be commercialized. I think that a martial artist who wishes to change to a different style or a person who wishes to become a martial artist, have become more cognizant of what kinds of virtues a good school should have. I invite anyone here to just do some research on the internet on information on how to find a good kwoon/dojo/dojang. The advice from many different sources will all have a common theme:

1- being overly secretive, as in not letting you watch a class and getting all uptight about it.

2- high start up fees, I call it gouging.

3- The big no-no. Contracts. When a school insists that I sign a contract it tells me a few things;

a) They don't have enough confidence in the quality of their instruction that they feel compelled to lock you in. The most reputable schools scoff at contracts because they know they offer excellent instruction at all times. Plus, they're mentality is, if you don't want to be here, then we don't want you here either.

b) If you sign the contract and the school provides poor instruction or if the so called head instructor is hardly around, the only option you have is to leave, now you eat the rest of the contract.

4- don't charge people a $100 bux a month for half hour long classes.

5- be upfront and honest about the style you teach on your web site. If you're ashamed about your style and lineage, maybe opening a school is not right for you.

6- don't tell prospective students that the sifu "doesn't touch hands with beginners". That sets a bad tone. What, being taught by the sifu isn't important? The beginning foundations is where you really need good instruction.

7- don't make a prospective student sit behind a partition and get a sales pitch the whole time when they were told they could observe a class.

8- don't offer a Black Belt Club.

9- when you ask me why I want to train at your school, please don't start off with, 'where do you work or are you currently employed?".

10- when I walk thru your doors, be humble.

 

[7starmantis]

I can see allot of your response is aimed at your recent visit to californiamartialarts. I think it would be awesome if every MA school could allow you to pay with food, or work around the house, but in today's society and business world, it is impossible to remain un-commercialized. The law requires you to have insurance, to abide by state health laws, to pay taxes on your business, etc.
This is sad, but is what makes MA schools commercial in nature nowadays. When a person owns a MA school and that is all they do, being commercial is what puts food on the table. People pay big bucks to hear from the most successful MA school owners about how they are so successful.

I'm truly sorry you had a bad experience, but that doesn't make a commercial school a fraud, a big school with many instructors to be paid, and high rent to be paid, must be commercial.

7sm