Mysteries of the X-Kans

jujutsu_indonesia

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Hello! I have been lurking in various internet discussion boards. I am not much of a debater and I don't have anything to defend or clarify regarding many topics that was being debated, so I tend to sit in the shadows most of the times.

Before I begin, I'd like to clarify one thing. I have deep respects for the Takamatsu-den teachings which are carried on in the Genbukan, Bujinkan and Jinenkan. And I consider people like Tanemura sensei, Hatsumi sensei, Manaka sensei and their teachers as very very very proficient martial artists, whose techniques are very valuable to learn. Whether they are Koryu or not doesn't mean anything to me. I am glad that these people (Hatsumi sensei, Tanemura sensei, Manaka sensei) are willing to sacrifice their time and non-Budo careers in order to preserve and perpetuate the traditions of their people.

However, there are many mysteries that I am sooo intrigued about, in regards of the three major Takamatsu-den organizations. There are so many questions which are hanging on the air, and even the quarreling factions themselves seemed to be "not quite sure" about the answers. After 3 years of browsing many Internet forums and reading websites, I found out that I am getting more confused, so perhaps I didn't get the full picture & now I must actually be making questions to get a clearer picture.

Please understand that I am not trying to enflame this forum, nor I am trying to imply any wrongdoings on any parties. I accept that human beings can make mistakes or can take decisions which seemed to be "wrong". The great x-Kan masters are human too, and they can make mistakes, just like masters of other traditions (yes, and that includes masters of Karate Goju-ryu, Wado-ryu etc). Errare Humanum Est. If I offended anyone, I sincerely apologize. I am just a Budo-lover who are equally interested in Budo-stories as with Budo-training.

I just need to know the opinions and perspectives of X-Kan people regarding these facts below. I will take answers and clarifications from all sides of the Takamatsu-den groups (Genbukan, Bujinkan, Jinenkan) and even outsider analysis. To state more clearly, I don't seek "right" answers, I just wish to know how many opinions and perspectives there is in regards to these facts below:

1. Hatsumi sensei's senior students whom are now creating their own group like Tanemura sensei and Manaka sensei had met/trained with Takamatsu sensei only ONCE, so they cannot claim to be direct students of Takamatsu sensei.

2. Hatsumi sensei was a senior student of Ueno Takashi sensei before trained with Takamatsu sensei & was even a group leader for him. But later Hatsumi sensei was given HAMON for reason unknown (what WAS the reason??? training fees too high?).

3. Ueno Takashi never trained with Takamatsu sensei, but received Densho and certifications from Takamatsu sensei in some Ryuhas (how could this happen???!?!? Did Takamatsu sensei think that Ueno Takashi sensei has already well-trained and doesn't need training anymore?)

4. Hatsumi sensei is already a highly respected martial arts teachers who has high rank in Judo, Aikido and Karate before joined Ueno Takashi's group. (That he had excellent training and skills before training with Takamatsu/Ueno, I do believe, because he moves very very well. However, is there any non X-Kan verifications about this?).

5. Tanemura sensei used to claim a Menkyokaiden in Hakko-ryu from Sato Kinbei (How come there are no verifications from www.jujutsu.com regarding Sato sensei's Hakko-ryu training?).

6. Hatsumi sensei are very highly respected by the film community in Japan for his knowledge. He starred in some Ninja films (for example "Jiraiya") and served as advisor for film companies who wanted to make traditional Budo films.

7. The Koryu community outside Japan gave high respects to Kaminaga sensei (who trained with Ueno sensei) and Tanaka Fumon sensei (who trained with Minaki sensei, whose teacher, Kakuno sensei, was a dojo-mate of Takamatsu sensei in Ishitani sensei's Jujutsu dojo), but for some reasons doesn't give the same level of respect to Hatsumi sensei who trained directly with Takamatsu sensei. It is said that this is due to the "Ninja" image which the Koryu community dislike a lot.

8. Tanemura sensei was a highly respected police-officer, and he once captured a knife-wielding criminal bare-handedly.

9. There are not one but many Jujutsu style with the name Shinden Fudo-ryu and only two of them are in the Takamatsu-den. It is said that there was an Englishman named Barton-Wright who studied Shinden Fudo-ryu from a certain Yata sensei before WWII (even earlier than Hatsumi sensei!)

10. The schools of Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu and Shinden Fudo-ryu are basically Jujutsu schools which uses older names (Kosshijutsu, Koppojutsu, Dakentaijutsu) and had some Chinese Kenpo influences (but nowadays has been completely "Nipponized").

11. Takamatsu sensei was the official martial art instructor for the Kuki family, and since he has Menkyokaiden in several Kuki family martial arts, he was allowed to start his own lines, and every student of his (Kimura sensei, Sato sensei, Hatsumi sensei etc) has a seal of verifications from the Kuki family in their Menkyo.

12. There are many branches of Kuki family martial arts, and some of them are in the Takamatsu-den traditions, so it is wrong to say that there are only one Kuki martial art & it is better to say that there are only one Kuki family but there are many derivations from their arts.

13. Examples of Kuki-related martial arts are: Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu Ishitani-Den (Sato sensei), Takagi Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu Mizuta-Den (Ueno sensei), Hontai Kukishin-ryu Bojutsu (Tanaka sensei), Kukishinden Happobiken (Hatsumi sensei), Kijin Chosui-ryu (Kobayashi sensei), Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu (Tanemura sensei) and Tenshin Hyoho Kukamishin-ryu (Kimura sensei). The official martial arts school of the Kuki family itself is called Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho, and now under the supervision of the highest-ranking instructor for the Kuki family, a certain Mr. Takatsuka Eichoku.

14. There are "Ninpo" techniques in the Kuki family arts, and Takamatsu sensei was a fully certified teacher of the Kuki traditions who has every rights to teach those Ninpo techniques. Thus the accusations that the Ninpo arts of Takamatsu has no basis in Koryu are totally false.

15. Ueno Takashi sensei has close relationships with Karate people, and he taught his Shinto Tenshin Koryu Kenpo and Shinden Fudo-ryu to some people from the Mabuni Kenwa and Konishi Yasuhiro Karate traditions.

16. Receiving a Menkyo license in a Jujutsu style does not make you a Soke of that style, it is just a sign that you have learned a certain numbers of Waza/techniques of the Ryuha as written in that license. The person who are groomed to be the next Soke will receive much more than just techniques, he will also receive Kuden (oral teachings) and certain mysteries/traditions of the Ryuha which will be passed only to the next Soke. A Ryuha can have many Menkyokaiden holders, but only one Soke. People with a Menkyokaiden who wants to be Soke must start their own lines & must not disturb the direct lineage of the last Soke.

Whew! That's all for now. 16 "facts", and I'd really really love to know the opinions and perspectives of fellow Forum members regarding these. I am not interested in which perspectives are the most "correct" ones, I just want to hear all those perspectives from all angles. I especially would love to hear the opinions from Mr. Paul Richardson, Mr. George Kohler, Mr. Michael Coleman and Mr. Jay Bell, because they're all seemed to be very knowledgeable in the matters of the X-Kan histories & they make excellent posts with lots of useful information for us non-Kan.

Thank you all for your time and please forgive my terrible English (English is not my 1st language, so if some of you answers my questions with questions, I might not be able to answer quickly:D ).

With good intentions,

Denny Hardika

(I studied Goju-ryu Karate and self-defense in Jakarta, Indonesia, and not in the X-Kans :D )





 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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For someone who isn't a native speaker of English nor a member of any X-kan, you sure seem to have done your homework. Don't be surprised if this puzzles people.
 
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jujutsu_indonesia

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Nimravus said:
For someone who isn't a native speaker of English nor a member of any X-kan, you sure seem to have done your homework. Don't be surprised if this puzzles people.
I lurked a lot in E-Budo :) for three years :)
 

George Kohler

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Wow! You learned all this by reading several forums?

jujutsu_indonesia said:
1. Hatsumi sensei's senior students whom are now creating their own group like Tanemura sensei and Manaka sensei had met/trained with Takamatsu sensei only ONCE, so they cannot claim to be direct students of Takamatsu sensei.

As far as I know this is correct.

jujutsu_indonesia said:
2. Hatsumi sensei was a senior student of Ueno Takashi sensei before trained with Takamatsu sensei & was even a group leader for him. But later Hatsumi sensei was given HAMON for reason unknown (what WAS the reason??? training fees too high?).

I don't know if there was a "hamon", but Ueno Sensei was not pleased that Hatsumi Sensei went behind his back to train with Takamatsu Sensei.

jujutsu_indonesia said:
3. Ueno Takashi never trained with Takamatsu sensei, but received Densho and certifications from Takamatsu sensei in some Ryuhas (how could this happen???!?!? Did Takamatsu sensei think that Ueno Takashi sensei has already well-trained and doesn't need training anymore?)

At one Bujinkan Taikai, which I believe was in the United Kingdom, Hatsumi Sensei stated that Ueno Takashi never met Takamstu Sensei. But one martial arts researcher from Hawai'i, Chris Moon, has stated that he has seen various pictures of Ueno Takashi Sensei and Takamatsu Sensei together. I believe that this has been covered on Kutaki.org.

jujutsu_indonesia said:
7. The Koryu community outside Japan gave high respects to Kaminaga sensei (who trained with Ueno sensei) and Tanaka Fumon sensei (who trained with Minaki sensei, whose teacher, Kakuno sensei, was a dojo-mate of Takamatsu sensei in Ishitani sensei's Jujutsu dojo), but for some reasons doesn't give the same level of respect to Hatsumi sensei who trained directly with Takamatsu sensei. It is said that this is due to the "Ninja" image which the Koryu community dislike a lot.

As far as I know, these two are not well respected in Japan. As for Kakuno training with Takamatsu Sensei, I don't think this was the case. Kakuno was a student of Ishitani Takema.Takamatsu Sensei was a student of Ishitani Matsutaro, son of Takema.

jujutsu_indonesia said:
9. There are not one but many Jujutsu style with the name Shinden Fudo-ryu and only two of them are in the Takamatsu-den. It is said that there was an Englishman named Barton-Wright who studied Shinden Fudo-ryu from a certain Yata sensei before WWII (even earlier than Hatsumi sensei!)

Actually, Barton-Wright learned Shinden Fudo-ryu about the same time Takamatsu Sensei was studying under his Grandfather, Toda Shinryuken (late 1800's).

jujutsu_indonesia said:
11. Takamatsu sensei was the official martial art instructor for the Kuki family, and since he has Menkyokaiden in several Kuki family martial arts, he was allowed to start his own lines, and every student of his (Kimura sensei, Sato sensei, Hatsumi sensei etc) has a seal of verifications from the Kuki family in their Menkyo.

At the time Takamatsu Sensei came back from China, he met Kuki Takaharu for the first time. Takamatsu Sensei demonstrated bojutsu and jujutsu. He already received soke of the schools from his teacher Ishitani 10 years prior(BTW, Ishitani never met the Kuki Family). It was after this demo that Takaharu and Takamatsu Sensei got together. After that the Kodosenyokai Shobukyoku was formed. Takamatsu Sensei suggested that he would be the hanshi and Takaharu would be the Soke for the organization. Later, Takamatsu Sensei left the Shobukyoku and went his own way. Not sure of the seal verification.

jujutsu_indonesia said:
12. There are many branches of Kuki family martial arts, and some of them are in the Takamatsu-den traditions, so it is wrong to say that there are only one Kuki martial art & it is better to say that there are only one Kuki family but there are many derivations from their arts.

Instead of saying "many branches", I would say it looks more like a bush.

jujutsu_indonesia said:
13. Examples of Kuki-related martial arts are: Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu Ishitani-Den (Sato sensei), Takagi Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu Mizuta-Den (Ueno sensei), Hontai Kukishin-ryu Bojutsu (Tanaka sensei), Kukishinden Happobiken (Hatsumi sensei), Kijin Chosui-ryu (Kobayashi sensei), Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu (Tanemura sensei) and Tenshin Hyoho Kukamishin-ryu (Kimura sensei). The official martial arts school of the Kuki family itself is called Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho, and now under the supervision of the highest-ranking instructor for the Kuki family, a certain Mr. Takatsuka Eichoku.

There are a few mistakes:

Hontai Kukishin-ryu bojutsu (Tanemura Sensei) - Not Tanaka.
Tanaka Fumon received Minaki-den Kukishin-ryu bojutsu. He has one more, but some people in Japan have questioned this other school.
Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu (Tanemura Sensei) is the same as Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu Ishitani-Den (Sato sensei)

Also, I believe there is a new shihan-ke for Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho.

jujutsu_indonesia said:
15. Ueno Takashi sensei has close relationships with Karate people, and he taught his Shinto Tenshin Koryu Kenpo and Shinden Fudo-ryu to some people from the Mabuni Kenwa and Konishi Yasuhiro Karate traditions.

Mabuni Kenwa also taught Shinden Fudo-ryu kenpo to Ueno Takashi.
 
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jujutsu_indonesia

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Kohler sensei, thank you for your information! I am so happy to receive straight answers like these. Once again thank you!
 
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jujutsu_indonesia

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George Kohler said:
Mabuni Kenwa also taught Shinden Fudo-ryu kenpo to Ueno Takashi.
Kohler sensei, if Mabuni sensei taught Shinden Fudo-ryu to Ueno sensei, then who taught Mabuni sensei? And who inherited Mabuni sensei's Shinden Fudo-ryu, because I never heard his sons claimed this Jujutsu Ryuha?
 
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jujutsu_indonesia

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George Kohler said:
Wow! You learned all this by reading several forums?
More or less by reading several forums, by watching Tanemura and Hatsumi sensei's videos, by reading Ura-Omote (online version) by Liz Maryland sensei, and so on :)
 

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jujutsu_indonesia said:
Kohler sensei, if Mabuni sensei taught Shinden Fudo-ryu to Ueno sensei, then who taught Mabuni sensei? And who inherited Mabuni sensei's Shinden Fudo-ryu, because I never heard his sons claimed this Jujutsu Ryuha?

Just call me George.

As far as I can tell, Yata Noriyuki (aka Kunino Ichiro) is the one that taught Mabuni Kenwa. As to how they met, I don't know. I was told that Kenwa taught Ueno Takashi, but in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten is has Mabuni Kenei and then Ueno Takashi.

Here is what the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten says about Shinden Fudo-ryu kenpo:

Shinden Fudō-ryū (Ken [fist], Bō [staff], Naginata [halberd] Iai [sword draw], Koshimawashi [around the hips], Yawara [jujutsu], and Tetsusa [iron chain])
Judge Yata is the founder (of this school). The school continued to the beginning of Meiji, when 9th generation Yata Onseisai Noriaki (commonly known as Taito) learned a number of ryu, (and went on to) found his own ryu, which he called Shinden Jigen-ryu; however, this was later changed by Yata Noriyuki to Shinden Fudo-ryu. In the time of the Meiji Restoration, he set up the Kusamou Yada Group in Kyoto with his son Takao, and went on a "business trip" teaching military arts in Yamato-Totsukawa and elsewhere. After the Restoration, he joined up with others of the Conservative school of thought and the Discontented Party in Kurume, Okayama, Totsukawa and elsewhere and planned to fool the former Nobles and overthrow the Satsuma Clan Government, but in March of the 4th year of the Meiji Period (1872) he was detected, caught, and became a lifetime prisoner. He was 50 years old at the time. His pseudonym in those days was called Kunino Ichiro. As for the lineage, --- Yata Noriaki Yata Noriyuki --- (17 Generation) Mabuni Kenwa Mabuni Kenei Ueno Takashi.
 

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Someone I know who spent a lot of time in Japan earlier this year commented on the fact that a quite large group of students of a particular nationality who visited Japan earlier this year had the habit of coming early to Honbu pretty much every time, lining up themselves according to rank and bowing in unison to the shihan responsible for the session as a way of "showing respect". A Japanese friend he brought with him once commented "what's this?? That's the way the Yakuza act when they're greeting their oyabuns!!" :uhoh:
 
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jujutsu_indonesia

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Nimravus said:
Why do you keep referring to people whom are not your teacher(s) in any way as sensei?
I call all Japanese Budo instructors "sensei", even if they're not teaching me, just to show respect. :)
 
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jujutsu_indonesia

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Nimravus said:
Someone I know who spent a lot of time in Japan earlier this year commented on the fact that a quite large group of students of a particular nationality who visited Japan earlier this year had the habit of coming early to Honbu pretty much every time, lining up themselves according to rank and bowing in unison to the shihan responsible for the session as a way of "showing respect". A Japanese friend he brought with him once commented "what's this?? That's the way the Yakuza act when they're greeting their oyabuns!!" :uhoh:
Whoa..I never been to Japan before.. is this really so? When I was with the Goju-Kai, we does that all the time. When a black belt entered our dojo, we stop training and bow to him. Well I guess this is another cultural mis-interpretation that we non-Japanese must deal with :)
 
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jujutsu_indonesia

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George Kohler said:
Just call me George.

As far as I can tell, Yata Noriyuki (aka Kunino Ichiro) is the one that taught Mabuni Kenwa. As to how they met, I don't know. I was told that Kenwa taught Ueno Takashi, but in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten is has Mabuni Kenei and then Ueno Takashi.

Here is what the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten says about Shinden Fudo-ryu kenpo:

Shinden Fudō-ryū (Ken [fist], Bō [staff], Naginata [halberd] Iai [sword draw], Koshimawashi [around the hips], Yawara [jujutsu], and Tetsusa [iron chain])
Judge Yata is the founder (of this school). The school continued to the beginning of Meiji, when 9th generation Yata Onseisai Noriaki (commonly known as Taito) learned a number of ryu, (and went on to) found his own ryu, which he called Shinden Jigen-ryu; however, this was later changed by Yata Noriyuki to Shinden Fudo-ryu. In the time of the Meiji Restoration, he set up the Kusamou Yada Group in Kyoto with his son Takao, and went on a "business trip" teaching military arts in Yamato-Totsukawa and elsewhere. After the Restoration, he joined up with others of the Conservative school of thought and the Discontented Party in Kurume, Okayama, Totsukawa and elsewhere and planned to fool the former Nobles and overthrow the Satsuma Clan Government, but in March of the 4th year of the Meiji Period (1872) he was detected, caught, and became a lifetime prisoner. He was 50 years old at the time. His pseudonym in those days was called Kunino Ichiro. As for the lineage, --- Yata Noriaki Yata Noriyuki --- (17 Generation) Mabuni Kenwa Mabuni Kenei Ueno Takashi.
Wow, thank you for reading the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten for us! This is a very interesting and I say important research piece... so Mabuni Kenwa of Shito-ryu Karate fame was not only a master of Okinawan Kenpo but also of a Japanese Koryu! A surprising news even to me who doesn't practice Shito-ryu.

Have you ever seen this Shinden Fudo-ryu of Ueno sensei performed? What does it looks like? I have absolutely no knowledge in this Ryuha, I only know bits and pieces from Hatsumi sensei's video.. but I guess that Shinden Fudo-ryu is of different lineage..
 

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Someone I know who spent a lot of time in Japan earlier this year commented on the fact that a quite large group of students of a particular nationality who visited Japan earlier this year had the habit of coming early to Honbu pretty much every time, lining up themselves according to rank and bowing in unison to the shihan responsible for the session as a way of "showing respect". A Japanese friend he brought with him once commented "what's this?? That's the way the Yakuza act when they're greeting their oyabuns!!"

I thought this was pretty funny--but I also have observed this in aikido and koryu systems. This is proper etiquette in many japanese systems and organizations...
 
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jujutsu_indonesia

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r erman said:
I thought this was pretty funny--but I also have observed this in aikido and koryu systems. This is proper etiquette in many japanese systems and organizations...
Oh, I am glad that this is not solely a tradition of the Yakuza :)
 

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jujutsu_indonesia said:
Have you ever seen this Shinden Fudo-ryu of Ueno sensei performed? What does it looks like? I have absolutely no knowledge in this Ryuha, I only know bits and pieces from Hatsumi sensei's video.. but I guess that Shinden Fudo-ryu is of different lineage..

Denny,

I have yet to see SFR kenpo, but based on a mokuroku scroll that I have seen, it does not appear to be a very big ryuha. As for the names of the kata, it did not match Hatsumi Sensei's daken version or Ueno Sensei's taijutsu version, so I can only assume that they are from a completely different lineage.
 
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jujutsu_indonesia

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George Kohler said:
Denny,

I have yet to see SFR kenpo, but based on a mokuroku scroll that I have seen, it does not appear to be a very big ryuha. As for the names of the kata, it did not match Hatsumi Sensei's daken version or Ueno Sensei's taijutsu version, so I can only assume that they are from a completely different lineage.
Thanks for the Info! Since we are in Shinden Fudo-ryu mode, I'd like to know, why this Ryuha (as taught in the X-Kans) has so many defenses against Judo-style grabs? Is there any records of SFR practitioners fighting challenge matches against Judokas?
 

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To the best of my knowledge, Shinden Fudo ryu practitioners carried quite large swords.

Kumiuchi holds are designed to prevent people from drawing their swords, among other things.
 
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