jujutsu_indonesia
Black Belt
Hello! I have been lurking in various internet discussion boards. I am not much of a debater and I don't have anything to defend or clarify regarding many topics that was being debated, so I tend to sit in the shadows most of the times.
Before I begin, I'd like to clarify one thing. I have deep respects for the Takamatsu-den teachings which are carried on in the Genbukan, Bujinkan and Jinenkan. And I consider people like Tanemura sensei, Hatsumi sensei, Manaka sensei and their teachers as very very very proficient martial artists, whose techniques are very valuable to learn. Whether they are Koryu or not doesn't mean anything to me. I am glad that these people (Hatsumi sensei, Tanemura sensei, Manaka sensei) are willing to sacrifice their time and non-Budo careers in order to preserve and perpetuate the traditions of their people.
However, there are many mysteries that I am sooo intrigued about, in regards of the three major Takamatsu-den organizations. There are so many questions which are hanging on the air, and even the quarreling factions themselves seemed to be "not quite sure" about the answers. After 3 years of browsing many Internet forums and reading websites, I found out that I am getting more confused, so perhaps I didn't get the full picture & now I must actually be making questions to get a clearer picture.
Please understand that I am not trying to enflame this forum, nor I am trying to imply any wrongdoings on any parties. I accept that human beings can make mistakes or can take decisions which seemed to be "wrong". The great x-Kan masters are human too, and they can make mistakes, just like masters of other traditions (yes, and that includes masters of Karate Goju-ryu, Wado-ryu etc). Errare Humanum Est. If I offended anyone, I sincerely apologize. I am just a Budo-lover who are equally interested in Budo-stories as with Budo-training.
I just need to know the opinions and perspectives of X-Kan people regarding these facts below. I will take answers and clarifications from all sides of the Takamatsu-den groups (Genbukan, Bujinkan, Jinenkan) and even outsider analysis. To state more clearly, I don't seek "right" answers, I just wish to know how many opinions and perspectives there is in regards to these facts below:
1. Hatsumi sensei's senior students whom are now creating their own group like Tanemura sensei and Manaka sensei had met/trained with Takamatsu sensei only ONCE, so they cannot claim to be direct students of Takamatsu sensei.
2. Hatsumi sensei was a senior student of Ueno Takashi sensei before trained with Takamatsu sensei & was even a group leader for him. But later Hatsumi sensei was given HAMON for reason unknown (what WAS the reason??? training fees too high?).
3. Ueno Takashi never trained with Takamatsu sensei, but received Densho and certifications from Takamatsu sensei in some Ryuhas (how could this happen???!?!? Did Takamatsu sensei think that Ueno Takashi sensei has already well-trained and doesn't need training anymore?)
4. Hatsumi sensei is already a highly respected martial arts teachers who has high rank in Judo, Aikido and Karate before joined Ueno Takashi's group. (That he had excellent training and skills before training with Takamatsu/Ueno, I do believe, because he moves very very well. However, is there any non X-Kan verifications about this?).
5. Tanemura sensei used to claim a Menkyokaiden in Hakko-ryu from Sato Kinbei (How come there are no verifications from www.jujutsu.com regarding Sato sensei's Hakko-ryu training?).
6. Hatsumi sensei are very highly respected by the film community in Japan for his knowledge. He starred in some Ninja films (for example "Jiraiya") and served as advisor for film companies who wanted to make traditional Budo films.
7. The Koryu community outside Japan gave high respects to Kaminaga sensei (who trained with Ueno sensei) and Tanaka Fumon sensei (who trained with Minaki sensei, whose teacher, Kakuno sensei, was a dojo-mate of Takamatsu sensei in Ishitani sensei's Jujutsu dojo), but for some reasons doesn't give the same level of respect to Hatsumi sensei who trained directly with Takamatsu sensei. It is said that this is due to the "Ninja" image which the Koryu community dislike a lot.
8. Tanemura sensei was a highly respected police-officer, and he once captured a knife-wielding criminal bare-handedly.
9. There are not one but many Jujutsu style with the name Shinden Fudo-ryu and only two of them are in the Takamatsu-den. It is said that there was an Englishman named Barton-Wright who studied Shinden Fudo-ryu from a certain Yata sensei before WWII (even earlier than Hatsumi sensei!)
10. The schools of Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu and Shinden Fudo-ryu are basically Jujutsu schools which uses older names (Kosshijutsu, Koppojutsu, Dakentaijutsu) and had some Chinese Kenpo influences (but nowadays has been completely "Nipponized").
11. Takamatsu sensei was the official martial art instructor for the Kuki family, and since he has Menkyokaiden in several Kuki family martial arts, he was allowed to start his own lines, and every student of his (Kimura sensei, Sato sensei, Hatsumi sensei etc) has a seal of verifications from the Kuki family in their Menkyo.
12. There are many branches of Kuki family martial arts, and some of them are in the Takamatsu-den traditions, so it is wrong to say that there are only one Kuki martial art & it is better to say that there are only one Kuki family but there are many derivations from their arts.
13. Examples of Kuki-related martial arts are: Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu Ishitani-Den (Sato sensei), Takagi Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu Mizuta-Den (Ueno sensei), Hontai Kukishin-ryu Bojutsu (Tanaka sensei), Kukishinden Happobiken (Hatsumi sensei), Kijin Chosui-ryu (Kobayashi sensei), Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu (Tanemura sensei) and Tenshin Hyoho Kukamishin-ryu (Kimura sensei). The official martial arts school of the Kuki family itself is called Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho, and now under the supervision of the highest-ranking instructor for the Kuki family, a certain Mr. Takatsuka Eichoku.
14. There are "Ninpo" techniques in the Kuki family arts, and Takamatsu sensei was a fully certified teacher of the Kuki traditions who has every rights to teach those Ninpo techniques. Thus the accusations that the Ninpo arts of Takamatsu has no basis in Koryu are totally false.
15. Ueno Takashi sensei has close relationships with Karate people, and he taught his Shinto Tenshin Koryu Kenpo and Shinden Fudo-ryu to some people from the Mabuni Kenwa and Konishi Yasuhiro Karate traditions.
16. Receiving a Menkyo license in a Jujutsu style does not make you a Soke of that style, it is just a sign that you have learned a certain numbers of Waza/techniques of the Ryuha as written in that license. The person who are groomed to be the next Soke will receive much more than just techniques, he will also receive Kuden (oral teachings) and certain mysteries/traditions of the Ryuha which will be passed only to the next Soke. A Ryuha can have many Menkyokaiden holders, but only one Soke. People with a Menkyokaiden who wants to be Soke must start their own lines & must not disturb the direct lineage of the last Soke.
Whew! That's all for now. 16 "facts", and I'd really really love to know the opinions and perspectives of fellow Forum members regarding these. I am not interested in which perspectives are the most "correct" ones, I just want to hear all those perspectives from all angles. I especially would love to hear the opinions from Mr. Paul Richardson, Mr. George Kohler, Mr. Michael Coleman and Mr. Jay Bell, because they're all seemed to be very knowledgeable in the matters of the X-Kan histories & they make excellent posts with lots of useful information for us non-Kan.
Thank you all for your time and please forgive my terrible English (English is not my 1st language, so if some of you answers my questions with questions, I might not be able to answer quickly
).
With good intentions,
Denny Hardika
(I studied Goju-ryu Karate and self-defense in Jakarta, Indonesia, and not in the X-Kans )
Before I begin, I'd like to clarify one thing. I have deep respects for the Takamatsu-den teachings which are carried on in the Genbukan, Bujinkan and Jinenkan. And I consider people like Tanemura sensei, Hatsumi sensei, Manaka sensei and their teachers as very very very proficient martial artists, whose techniques are very valuable to learn. Whether they are Koryu or not doesn't mean anything to me. I am glad that these people (Hatsumi sensei, Tanemura sensei, Manaka sensei) are willing to sacrifice their time and non-Budo careers in order to preserve and perpetuate the traditions of their people.
However, there are many mysteries that I am sooo intrigued about, in regards of the three major Takamatsu-den organizations. There are so many questions which are hanging on the air, and even the quarreling factions themselves seemed to be "not quite sure" about the answers. After 3 years of browsing many Internet forums and reading websites, I found out that I am getting more confused, so perhaps I didn't get the full picture & now I must actually be making questions to get a clearer picture.
Please understand that I am not trying to enflame this forum, nor I am trying to imply any wrongdoings on any parties. I accept that human beings can make mistakes or can take decisions which seemed to be "wrong". The great x-Kan masters are human too, and they can make mistakes, just like masters of other traditions (yes, and that includes masters of Karate Goju-ryu, Wado-ryu etc). Errare Humanum Est. If I offended anyone, I sincerely apologize. I am just a Budo-lover who are equally interested in Budo-stories as with Budo-training.
I just need to know the opinions and perspectives of X-Kan people regarding these facts below. I will take answers and clarifications from all sides of the Takamatsu-den groups (Genbukan, Bujinkan, Jinenkan) and even outsider analysis. To state more clearly, I don't seek "right" answers, I just wish to know how many opinions and perspectives there is in regards to these facts below:
1. Hatsumi sensei's senior students whom are now creating their own group like Tanemura sensei and Manaka sensei had met/trained with Takamatsu sensei only ONCE, so they cannot claim to be direct students of Takamatsu sensei.
2. Hatsumi sensei was a senior student of Ueno Takashi sensei before trained with Takamatsu sensei & was even a group leader for him. But later Hatsumi sensei was given HAMON for reason unknown (what WAS the reason??? training fees too high?).
3. Ueno Takashi never trained with Takamatsu sensei, but received Densho and certifications from Takamatsu sensei in some Ryuhas (how could this happen???!?!? Did Takamatsu sensei think that Ueno Takashi sensei has already well-trained and doesn't need training anymore?)
4. Hatsumi sensei is already a highly respected martial arts teachers who has high rank in Judo, Aikido and Karate before joined Ueno Takashi's group. (That he had excellent training and skills before training with Takamatsu/Ueno, I do believe, because he moves very very well. However, is there any non X-Kan verifications about this?).
5. Tanemura sensei used to claim a Menkyokaiden in Hakko-ryu from Sato Kinbei (How come there are no verifications from www.jujutsu.com regarding Sato sensei's Hakko-ryu training?).
6. Hatsumi sensei are very highly respected by the film community in Japan for his knowledge. He starred in some Ninja films (for example "Jiraiya") and served as advisor for film companies who wanted to make traditional Budo films.
7. The Koryu community outside Japan gave high respects to Kaminaga sensei (who trained with Ueno sensei) and Tanaka Fumon sensei (who trained with Minaki sensei, whose teacher, Kakuno sensei, was a dojo-mate of Takamatsu sensei in Ishitani sensei's Jujutsu dojo), but for some reasons doesn't give the same level of respect to Hatsumi sensei who trained directly with Takamatsu sensei. It is said that this is due to the "Ninja" image which the Koryu community dislike a lot.
8. Tanemura sensei was a highly respected police-officer, and he once captured a knife-wielding criminal bare-handedly.
9. There are not one but many Jujutsu style with the name Shinden Fudo-ryu and only two of them are in the Takamatsu-den. It is said that there was an Englishman named Barton-Wright who studied Shinden Fudo-ryu from a certain Yata sensei before WWII (even earlier than Hatsumi sensei!)
10. The schools of Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu and Shinden Fudo-ryu are basically Jujutsu schools which uses older names (Kosshijutsu, Koppojutsu, Dakentaijutsu) and had some Chinese Kenpo influences (but nowadays has been completely "Nipponized").
11. Takamatsu sensei was the official martial art instructor for the Kuki family, and since he has Menkyokaiden in several Kuki family martial arts, he was allowed to start his own lines, and every student of his (Kimura sensei, Sato sensei, Hatsumi sensei etc) has a seal of verifications from the Kuki family in their Menkyo.
12. There are many branches of Kuki family martial arts, and some of them are in the Takamatsu-den traditions, so it is wrong to say that there are only one Kuki martial art & it is better to say that there are only one Kuki family but there are many derivations from their arts.
13. Examples of Kuki-related martial arts are: Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu Ishitani-Den (Sato sensei), Takagi Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu Mizuta-Den (Ueno sensei), Hontai Kukishin-ryu Bojutsu (Tanaka sensei), Kukishinden Happobiken (Hatsumi sensei), Kijin Chosui-ryu (Kobayashi sensei), Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu (Tanemura sensei) and Tenshin Hyoho Kukamishin-ryu (Kimura sensei). The official martial arts school of the Kuki family itself is called Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho, and now under the supervision of the highest-ranking instructor for the Kuki family, a certain Mr. Takatsuka Eichoku.
14. There are "Ninpo" techniques in the Kuki family arts, and Takamatsu sensei was a fully certified teacher of the Kuki traditions who has every rights to teach those Ninpo techniques. Thus the accusations that the Ninpo arts of Takamatsu has no basis in Koryu are totally false.
15. Ueno Takashi sensei has close relationships with Karate people, and he taught his Shinto Tenshin Koryu Kenpo and Shinden Fudo-ryu to some people from the Mabuni Kenwa and Konishi Yasuhiro Karate traditions.
16. Receiving a Menkyo license in a Jujutsu style does not make you a Soke of that style, it is just a sign that you have learned a certain numbers of Waza/techniques of the Ryuha as written in that license. The person who are groomed to be the next Soke will receive much more than just techniques, he will also receive Kuden (oral teachings) and certain mysteries/traditions of the Ryuha which will be passed only to the next Soke. A Ryuha can have many Menkyokaiden holders, but only one Soke. People with a Menkyokaiden who wants to be Soke must start their own lines & must not disturb the direct lineage of the last Soke.
Whew! That's all for now. 16 "facts", and I'd really really love to know the opinions and perspectives of fellow Forum members regarding these. I am not interested in which perspectives are the most "correct" ones, I just want to hear all those perspectives from all angles. I especially would love to hear the opinions from Mr. Paul Richardson, Mr. George Kohler, Mr. Michael Coleman and Mr. Jay Bell, because they're all seemed to be very knowledgeable in the matters of the X-Kan histories & they make excellent posts with lots of useful information for us non-Kan.
Thank you all for your time and please forgive my terrible English (English is not my 1st language, so if some of you answers my questions with questions, I might not be able to answer quickly
).With good intentions,
Denny Hardika
(I studied Goju-ryu Karate and self-defense in Jakarta, Indonesia, and not in the X-Kans
)
for three years 
