Moo Duk Kwan?

mjd

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Some one turn the lights on in here, I must understand one thing before I die and move on to the after life.

What is this about Tang Soo Do being Moo Duk Kwan or not?, maybe I missed the boat, but are not all Tang Soo Do from the Moo Duk Kwan.

I understand that some Tang Soo Do orgs do not use the Moo Duk Kwan name, but so what, however remote they still came from the same founder Master Hwang Kee.

help me I'm sinking in sinking sand.
 

aerotd

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I am not totally sure since I am pretty new. But, according to my study guides and a lot of the books I've found, there are differences. I belong to the World Tang Soo Do Association and our hyungs are different than most Moo Duk Kwan books I have seen. Our Grandmaster is Jae Chul Shin and I have been unable to find our beginning forms in any other books about Tang Soo Do. We use Sae Kye Hyung Il Bu, E Bu, and Sam Bu.
 

Grenadier

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mjd said:
What is this about Tang Soo Do being Moo Duk Kwan or not?, maybe I missed the boat, but are not all Tang Soo Do from the Moo Duk Kwan.

I understand that some Tang Soo Do orgs do not use the Moo Duk Kwan name, but so what, however remote they still came from the same founder Master Hwang Kee.

In a nutshell,

Tang Soo Do changed its name to Soo Bahk Do (the style taught by current Moo Duk Kwan).

Not everyone in the Tang Soo Do family, though, followed this course, and Tang Soo Do continues to operate on its own.
 

Butch

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Tang Soo Do was around before the Moo Duk Kwan. The term Tang Soo Do was first used by GM Lee, Won Kuk, but most of the Tang Soo Do stylist, except for the Moo Duk Kwan, went with TaeKwonDo after 1957.

GM Shin has changed the hyungs somewhat after he left the Moo Duk Kwan that is the reason for the different look in the WTSDA.

Yes the USTSDMDKF has changed their name and also changed their hyungs so that they are no longer TSD but are now SooBahkDo.

TangSooDo is so ingrained in MDK that when someone talks about one they are talking about the other, but that is changing.

I hopes this helps.
Butch
 

rmclain

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Before 1965 or so, most strike/kick-type martial art schools called their art either Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do, Kwon Bup or Kwon Soo Do (not a well known name).

All of the 5 major kwans in S. Korea following WWII used one of the above names: 1) Chang Moo Kwan, 2) Moo Duk Kwan, 3) Chung Do Kwan, 4) Song Moo Kwan, 5) Ji Do Kwan.

Some schools still linked to an old kwan will still use the "Tang Soo Do" name and not "Tae Kwon Do." Though most people nowadays relate the "Tang Soo Do" name with the Moo Duk Kwan and Hwang Kee, this was not the case until the early 1960's.

So, if you see the name, "Tang Soo Do" somewhere, it doesn't necessarily mean a Moo Duk Kwan school.

R. McLain
 
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Very good info, I must say I am still don't understand, maybe I am looking at it differently.

Master Hwang Kee was Moo Duk Kwan.
Master Hwang Kee was the originator of Tang Soo Do.

I look at it like Moo Duk Kwan is Tang Soo Do family tree, even if we don't call ourselves Moo Duk Kwan, or we do different hyungs, or have different organizational connections to the Moo Duk kwan, we all came from the same source through some path, if we trace back our instructors, Masters, we will find at some point it ends up at Master Kwang Kee.

Moo Duk Kwan is a way of life, not a name or hyung, it is a style of training, the whole body concept and all that stuff, in this respect Tang Soo Do has not changed or broken from. The Spirit of Moo Duk Kwan continues to live in all Tang Soo Do artist.

Moo Duk Kwan has been defaced by politics and legalities for money, trade marks, and commercialism.

What a mess.
 

rmclain

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mjd said:
Very good info, I must say I am still don't understand, maybe I am looking at it differently.

Master Hwang Kee was Moo Duk Kwan.
Master Hwang Kee was the originator of Tang Soo Do.

I look at it like Moo Duk Kwan is Tang Soo Do family tree, even if we don't call ourselves Moo Duk Kwan, or we do different hyungs, or have different organizational connections to the Moo Duk kwan, we all came from the same source through some path, if we trace back our instructors, Masters, we will find at some point it ends up at Master Kwang Kee.

Moo Duk Kwan is a way of life, not a name or hyung, it is a style of training, the whole body concept and all that stuff, in this respect Tang Soo Do has not changed or broken from. The Spirit of Moo Duk Kwan continues to live in all Tang Soo Do artist.

Moo Duk Kwan has been defaced by politics and legalities for money, trade marks, and commercialism.

What a mess.


There were 5 major schools of Tang Soo Do established following WWII.

1) Ji Do Kwan
2) Chung Do Kwan
3) Moo Duk Kwon
4) Song Moo Kwan
5) Chang Moo Kwan

All of these schools called their art "Tang Soo Do" back then.

When the attempt to merge these major schools into one large organization came about, the Moo Duk Kwan went its own way and kept its name. This is why students nowadays think Moo Duk Kwan is the only "Tang Soo Do," since all of those original school quit using the "Tang Soo Do" name and distinction.

While Hwang Kee was the founder of the Moo Duk Kwan, he was NOT the founder of Tang Soo Do. "Tang Soo Do" was just a generic term used by many of the schools.

R. McLain
 

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Tang Soo Do is the Korean translation for Kara Te Do an Okinawan term meaning The Way Of The Tang or China Hand. I think that it was first used by Lee, Won Kuk so you could say he founded Tang Soo Do. He was a 2nd Dan in ShotoKan and trained in Japan while going to school. After returning to Korea he open a school using the Korean translation to be more open to the Korean students.
Hope this helps,
Butch
 
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mjd

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Sorry Retract that, WMDK only claims Hwang Kee founded MDK, not TSD.
 

tsdclaflin

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"kwan" means school.

Moo Duk Kwan was the name of Hwang Kee's school.

The name of his style was "Tang Soo Do".

The phrase "Tang Soo Do" in korean was so common that it was attributed to a lot of different styles, kind of like we use the word "karate" in the USA. Hwang Kee's style was renamed "Soo Bahk Do". But the school name is still "Moo Duk Kwan".
 

MALibrarian

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Since we're on the question of Moo Duk Kwan.. Who should/can claim to be Moo Duk Kwon? I'm not affiliated with any larger organization, nor is my instructor, nor is his (anymore). On the other hand, the name of the system as it was handed down (from Hwang Kee via Kim Song Ki and Kim Chong Su) was Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwon.

So, is labeling what I teach as Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwon accurate?
 

EmperorOfKentukki

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Lineage wise...if you are teaching the curriculum utilized by the Moo Duk Kwan prior to 1995, then it may be accurate.

But is it ethical? No. Since Hwang Kee gave the Moo Duk Kwan (His school by the way) to his heir (Hwang Hyun Chul), then unless your are affiliated to a certified dojang under the umbrella of the Moo Duk Kwan under his egiss....then it would be unethical to claim to CURRENTLY be Moo Duk Kwan.

Many of us have already faced this moral delimna and chosen to use other names for our Kwans today. We can always teach our history of where we come from, but it would be wrong and misleading to claim to be something we are not.

And trust me, if you have become familiar with what the new administration has done to the Moo Duk Kwan.....you might not want to be affiliated.

The Emperor
 
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The main problem with this issue is that practitioners that have come from lineage that began with the Moo Duk Kwon, the fact is, as has been stated many times is that; we (or most of us on this discussion board) teach Tang Soo Do (The name KJN Hwang Kee gave to his system/art/Way). Moo Duk Kwon is the name of an organization that was started by KJN Hwang Kee, and was given at the time of his death to his son, H.C. Hwang.

The only way to call your self a member of the Moo Duk Kwon is to join the Soo Bahk Do Federation, under H.C. Hwang and be a Card Holding Member. If you are not involved with this specific Federation, you may be teaching Tang Soo Do, but thats it no Moo Duk Kwon membership.

At this point in time, H.C. Hwang has a serious team of lawyers chasing down and bringing law suits against those who choose to use the name Moo Duk Kwon, use the fist and laurels with the Moo-Tang-Soo in the scroll, etc.

As JH stated; many who were once Moo Duk Kwon members (like me) changed our association names and artwork to remove any such possibility of being caught up in the court room.


Yours in Tang Soo Do (not Moo Duk Kwon) ,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!! (not Soo Bahk)
 

Butch

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I will ditto Master Penfil and John Handcock"s statements in fact I have took down the flag and tore off the patch and will never mention Moo Duk Kwan in my school again. I am disapointed in the way they have treated the pass members of the Moo Dulk Kwan and the people that help make it what it was, not what it is!
Butch Voss
World Traditional Tang Soo Do Fed.
 

EmperorOfKentukki

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Butch, Thank you for your compliment. But please, there is no 'd' in my name. Don't worry. Lots of people make this mistake, but my name is spelled exactly the same as the famous Constitutional signer.

However, I still prefer 'The Emperor'. LOL!!

Thanks.
 

Dillon Hall

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Some one turn the lights on in here, I must understand one thing before I die and move on to the after life.

What is this about Tang Soo Do being Moo Duk Kwan or not?, maybe I missed the boat, but are not all Tang Soo Do from the Moo Duk Kwan.

I understand that some Tang Soo Do orgs do not use the Moo Duk Kwan name, but so what, however remote they still came from the same founder Master Hwang Kee.

help me I'm sinking in sinking sand.

First, let me say that I am a 3rd Dan in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan.
The Moo Duk Kwan was started by Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee in the 1940's. He had found the Muye Dobo Tongji and Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan was created from that.
In the 1970's, the art changed its name to Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan because of philisophical changes that were made to the art and new concepts that were being taught. At this point, many people split off to continue Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. It is these people that are Moo Duk Kwan lineage, but only Soo Bahk Do is the "true" Moo Duk Kwan since Hwang Kee stuck with Soo Bahk Do. Any other Tang Soo Do that was created by others to use the name are certainly not Moo Duk Kwan.
I hope this helps!
Dillon Hall
 

Dillon Hall

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The main problem with this issue is that practitioners that have come from lineage that began with the Moo Duk Kwon, the fact is, as has been stated many times is that; we (or most of us on this discussion board) teach Tang Soo Do (The name KJN Hwang Kee gave to his system/art/Way). Moo Duk Kwon is the name of an organization that was started by KJN Hwang Kee, and was given at the time of his death to his son, H.C. Hwang.

The only way to call your self a member of the Moo Duk Kwon is to join the Soo Bahk Do Federation, under H.C. Hwang and be a Card Holding Member. If you are not involved with this specific Federation, you may be teaching Tang Soo Do, but thats it no Moo Duk Kwon membership.

At this point in time, H.C. Hwang has a serious team of lawyers chasing down and bringing law suits against those who choose to use the name Moo Duk Kwon, use the fist and laurels with the Moo-Tang-Soo in the scroll, etc.

As JH stated; many who were once Moo Duk Kwon members (like me) changed our association names and artwork to remove any such possibility of being caught up in the court room.


Yours in Tang Soo Do (not Moo Duk Kwon) ,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!! (not Soo Bahk)

Ok,
So I dont see why people care if they are part of the Moo Duk Kwan or not. If you disagree with the concepts being taught in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan then dont use the name/logo. There is such a thing a copyright. If you wanted to use Coca-Cola to help out out business without Coca-Cola's consent and they brought you to court, it would be understandable, right? I dont see why peopel are so angry at the Moo Duk Kwan.
Just one question: why did you start training? Was it for self defence, or better health, better flexability, just to train, to have fun, etc? Or was it to insult another art? To play politics? what?
I do take offence to your incorret criticism of Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and I dont think that this was the origional intent of the person posting this.
 
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