Does anyone know to what extent the books on knife and stick fighting by Michael Echanis were actually used by the military, to whayt extent and for how long?
Michael Echanis Books.
- Thread starter arnisador
- Start date
D
Don Rearic
Guest
I believe they were used to a large degree in the past, but Combatives things in the Military is really geographical. We saw that when discussing Datu Worden.
Michael D. Echanis was and still is, a rather controversial figure in Martial Arts Circles...
There are alot of people in Military Special Forces, of all branches with Special Operations Units, that were exposed to Echanis Material.
Michael D. Echanis was and still is, a rather controversial figure in Martial Arts Circles...
There are alot of people in Military Special Forces, of all branches with Special Operations Units, that were exposed to Echanis Material.
I saw the local USMCR doing CQC training a couple of weekends ago. (They were practicing outside.) I watched for some while. Elbows and knees practiced on a shield held by another Marine, plus shin kicks. In addition I saw them practicing a sideways hammerfist to the body which surprised me a bit. I don't know if this is an approved curriculum or just what the local group is doing.
ikenpo
Black Belt
I enjoyed his books as well. It took me forever to finally come across the deadly "black book" and when I did I found the picture style to be the same as Dr. LaTourrette's Knife fighters book.
The part of the book that was really surprising was the knife throwing out of a front roll (if I remember correctly).
Regards, jb
ikenpo
Black Belt
I loved it. I'm a little bias of course because my instructor is in it. He's the only Black guy doing the techs with Doc.
But seriously, I thought the techniques were represented well from the pictures although there is some loss in the interpretation when you go from a book as I found out going over them with my instructor. Otherwise it was a good example of how basic and not so basic Kenpo techniques were adapted to the knife.
jb
But seriously, I thought the techniques were represented well from the pictures although there is some loss in the interpretation when you go from a book as I found out going over them with my instructor. Otherwise it was a good example of how basic and not so basic Kenpo techniques were adapted to the knife.
jb
KENPOJOE
Brown Belt
RE: what the military is doing now with HTH training and blade fighting..
The military simply picks what is in vogue at that time in regards to the popularly "effective" martial arts....lately it's been filipino martial arts and brazilian Jujutsu! So we'll see what time and battle tested technique yeild in regards to answers! Although, i'd hate to be in the mount of the guard when another enemy stabs me!
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOEKENPOJOE's Web site
or
REBELO'S KENPO KARATE
:::Getting off my soapbox now::::soapbox:
The military simply picks what is in vogue at that time in regards to the popularly "effective" martial arts....lately it's been filipino martial arts and brazilian Jujutsu! So we'll see what time and battle tested technique yeild in regards to answers! Although, i'd hate to be in the mount of the guard when another enemy stabs me!
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOEKENPOJOE's Web site
or
REBELO'S KENPO KARATE
:::Getting off my soapbox now::::soapbox:
KENPOJOE
Brown Belt
Hi folks!
I started reading this thread and i thought I'd add fuel to the fire!
As many of you already know from his books, Micheal Enchanis's main art was Hwa Rang Do[ the way of flowering manhood], a hybrid korean hybrid art that was brought to this country by Joo Bang Lee and his brother in the 1960's
The method of knife fighting that Enchanis did is now available on video through individuals like Michael Dealba [although I believe he is now doing his own sub system of knife fighting] and I believe through Joo Bang Lee's own series of tapes on Hwa Rang Do from Panther Productions.
I was fortunate to see some of the "sul sa" knife work at a demonstration of Hwa Rang Do in the 1980's.
The blade work seems to be heavily influenced by Chinese "ring Dagger" in regards to it's large slicing actions and inverted traps and catches.
I enjoyed getting the famous forbidden "Black Book" on knife fighting back in the eighties and it is interesting to say the least!
I still find the knife work a little too ...flowery?
:::Getting off my soapbox::::soapbox:
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
:asian:
KENPOJOE's Website
or
REBELO"S KENPO KARATE
I started reading this thread and i thought I'd add fuel to the fire!
As many of you already know from his books, Micheal Enchanis's main art was Hwa Rang Do[ the way of flowering manhood], a hybrid korean hybrid art that was brought to this country by Joo Bang Lee and his brother in the 1960's
The method of knife fighting that Enchanis did is now available on video through individuals like Michael Dealba [although I believe he is now doing his own sub system of knife fighting] and I believe through Joo Bang Lee's own series of tapes on Hwa Rang Do from Panther Productions.
I was fortunate to see some of the "sul sa" knife work at a demonstration of Hwa Rang Do in the 1980's.
The blade work seems to be heavily influenced by Chinese "ring Dagger" in regards to it's large slicing actions and inverted traps and catches.
I enjoyed getting the famous forbidden "Black Book" on knife fighting back in the eighties and it is interesting to say the least!
I still find the knife work a little too ...flowery?
:::Getting off my soapbox::::soapbox:
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
:asian:
KENPOJOE's Website
or
REBELO"S KENPO KARATE
KENPOJOE
Brown Belt
Hi Arnisador!
Paul Vunak's past work with the Navy seals and Leo Gaje's present work with US marines in the Phillipines immediately come to mind! Did you see the pic the associated Press ran of him teaching troops for "Edged Impact Weapons Tactica Combat Training" for the joint military training exercise "Balikatan 02-2" at Ternate,Cavite.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
H
Hwarang
Guest
For those of you who have seen Echanis books and would like to see how the techniques looks like in motion - there's a short knife demo at http://www.hwarangdo.com/videoclips.htm - Knife Preview
Carsten
Carsten
Y
yilisifu
Guest
From what I understand (following an interview some time back with Joo Bang Lee) is that Echanis's Hwarang-Do training was very minimal; in fact, he had almost no training in it at all. He conspired with Lee to do the book and Lee agreed to name him as a high-ranking Hwarang-Do practicioner.
The original text was a bit too gruesome for the publisher and a lot of material was removed or changed. The publisher felt that the public might not respond well to a book that emphasized too much blood and gore.... Time's have changed between then and now!
I agree that some of his techniques were too flowery. On the other hand, some were very practical. The principles they taught were very interesting.
The original text was a bit too gruesome for the publisher and a lot of material was removed or changed. The publisher felt that the public might not respond well to a book that emphasized too much blood and gore.... Time's have changed between then and now!
I agree that some of his techniques were too flowery. On the other hand, some were very practical. The principles they taught were very interesting.
H
Hwarang
Guest
Hello Sifu
The part about Echanis not training for long is NOT from an interview with Joo Bang Lee. It's one of those Internet stories that slowly spreads and people starts believing.
Echanis was taught by Joo Bang Lee, he taught Hwarang Do in LA, and the techniques in the books are Hwarang Do.
"Lee agreed to name him as a high-ranking Hwarang-Do practicioner" - this is also not something Lee does.
As mentioned above in one of the posts, there are a couple of videoclips at http://www.hwarangdo.com/videoclips.htm which shows how the techniques looks in motion rather than still photos for those interested.
Thanks,
Carsten
The part about Echanis not training for long is NOT from an interview with Joo Bang Lee. It's one of those Internet stories that slowly spreads and people starts believing.
Echanis was taught by Joo Bang Lee, he taught Hwarang Do in LA, and the techniques in the books are Hwarang Do.
"Lee agreed to name him as a high-ranking Hwarang-Do practicioner" - this is also not something Lee does.
As mentioned above in one of the posts, there are a couple of videoclips at http://www.hwarangdo.com/videoclips.htm which shows how the techniques looks in motion rather than still photos for those interested.
Thanks,
Carsten
D
dohap
Guest
1. this story is rather complicated, I would not say that he was really learning hwarangdo
2. first knife book (defence) is nothing special - just material from half-black belt
3. I got the black book for 10 years and really don't know what so many people see in it...
4. the real deal in hrd knife techniques is Michael DeAlba's materials, but I suggest rather training personally with Him. Much deeper skills and knowledge than you can imagine.
2. first knife book (defence) is nothing special - just material from half-black belt
3. I got the black book for 10 years and really don't know what so many people see in it...
4. the real deal in hrd knife techniques is Michael DeAlba's materials, but I suggest rather training personally with Him. Much deeper skills and knowledge than you can imagine.
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
My understanding is that Tuhon Gaje was training the Filipino Marines, not the U.S. Marines. Is that incorrect?
Probably the Marine Corps HTH system, Arnisador. They've been pushing it heavily throughout the Corps...all officers are required to get basic instruction and earn a "tan" belt. I don't know much about the system...other than it is eclectic and progressive.
As for Echanis's books influencing the military...at one point, possibly. My sense is that insofar as the Army goes, the Rangers drive the HTH curriculum as outlined in the FM's (Field Manuals). I have a friend at West Point teaching combatives, and if I ever get a chance to confer with him, I'll ask him if my impression is correct.
The current FM stresses BJJ. It states that a joint lock or choke is the fastest way to disable someone, and it hits a lot of the ground work. I have nothing against BJJ, but I DO have a problem with the preceding statement.
When I was stationed at Camp Pendleton (1980-82) a Hwarang Do instructor was teaching a class to Marines somewhere on base. My understanding was that the government contracted him to do it. I don't think they were Force Recon...(something makes me wants to say it was an infantry regiment). The instructor was that Korean taking Joo Bang Lee's throws in the Hwarando book trilogy by Ohara. By the time I heard about it, the class was defunct.
Regards,
Steve
