Looking for in depth information on Naihanji Hyungs

[robertmrivers]

JT

Thanks for the comments. I was punching with one hand because the camera was on that side! Your learning is correct. I was always taught 100 with the right, 200 with the left. But, once the coordination is there, keeping it 50/50 is correct. As for bringing the hand back to the hip...that is a whole different can of worms. Remember, you bring the hand back to the hip because there is something in it! You don't really punch someone like that in a self defense situation. Watch it again...watch my belt...there is plenty of hip. Again, the surface of kata is deceitful. Also, having both hands in front puts MORE power into the punch than bringing one side to the hip. I don't have time to explain it. Practice , practice, practice...maybe I'll do a Martial Minute on that...

My fist is not vertical...it is a 3/4 punch, about 45 degrees from being horizontal. As I said, there are many ways to hit the maki. This is my preferred way as it is also a typical way of hitting in Okinawa. Motobu Sensei taught me his (and his father's) method as well which is actually a little different. There are so many ways to do it.

The purpose of hitting the maki with the 3/4 punch is that when you actually make contact with the target, you're fist is not completely twisted. If it is, as in a typical TSD punch (or any punch from kata) then you are snapping your technique on the surface of the target. You should make contact at the 1/2 to 3/4 mark and the remaining twist is your follow through...you need penetrating power...not snapping power. You don't actually see the remaining twist on the maki because the board is pressing back on your arm and it just won't twist. You need to punch differently (and with less power) if you want to roll the hand over. If you hit the maki enough, it teaches you how to punch correctly. Making contact at that 3/4 mark (at the distance I was at, anyway...the fist is at a different position depending on the range) gives me the maximum musculo-skeletal strength to support my strongest punch (hitting with my whole body).

You need to blast the heck out of that bag JT! Its there, put it to work! When it is all said and done, conditioning is conditioning. Anything is better than nothing. A heavy bag is actually the next best thing so hit it! I can show you how to make a makiwara. You may not be able to put it up at the dojo, but you can have one at your home...and you don't have to do Okinawan Karate to have one. If you want it, build it. I think you'd like it.

The purpose of the maki...and why we don't only hit a heavy bag, is the maki hits you back...if your arm is out of position, punching with the wrong knuckles, too much wrist twist, not enough hip, sloppy stance, etc the maki will "bite" you back. The oak plank is really stiff and offers a ton of resistance as soon as you make contact. It is truly one of the best teachers in the dojo...better than some of my black belts!! (just kidding).

Anyway, hope you all get something out of it. Sorry again for the size...

Rob

 

[robertmrivers]

Upnorth

TICHIKI implies the feet as well (good question by the way). Remember, before karate was called karate, it was called TI (Di). Although it means hand, it has a deeper implication. Such is the confusion that is the Hogen dialect.

I had this particular maki made...the base anyway. Any welding shop should be able to put one together for about $20. I like the platform instead of mounting permanently because I can move it around...

Rob

 

[tsdmgk1336]

I haven't had a chance to set down and read the whole disscussion yet but I will. but I have one thing to say. Its because of people like Penfil Sbn that have opened my eyes to Bunkai,Oyo,and Hankai. And i'm becoming a more surious student than I have ever been before.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

JT
As for bringing the hand back to the hip...that is a whole different can of worms. Remember, you bring the hand back to the hip because there is something in it!

Something in it? Maybe explain that more, especially because my instructors yell at me if I only pull back to my hip, not the ribs.

You need to blast the heck out of that bag JT! Its there, put it to work!

I know, I know...

The purpose of the maki...and why we don't only hit a heavy bag, is the maki hits you back...if your arm is out of position, punching with the wrong knuckles, too much wrist twist, not enough hip, sloppy stance, etc the maki will "bite" you back. The oak plank is really stiff and offers a ton of resistance as soon as you make contact. It is truly one of the best teachers in the dojo...better than some of my black belts!! (just kidding).

We have a really heavy bag, suspended from a metal frame, on one wall of our dojang, and let me tell you, it hits back and hits back hard. Punching it, and especially if you're kicking it, you gotta make sure you're hitting dead on and correctly.

 

[robertmrivers]

Pulling the hand back to the hip (or the ribs...or the center of the chest; depending on what style you are coming from) is done in kata. My particular style does all three depending on the kata. It is done in kata because you are grabbing something and pulling it to you. At the kihon level you may have blocked, grabbed the wrist of the punching hand and as you pull that wrist to your hip, off-balancing them, you punch them with the other hand. Chuden, Okuden, Naiden (Oyo...techniques progressively becoming more advanced) techniques are going to involve applying a specific technique which "looks" like the hand being pulled to the hip but may be a wrist lock, elbow, shoulder throw or any number of variations of them.

You do not (not to sound imperialist...but you truly do not) pull the hand to the hip to "get ready" to punch with it. Again this is done in kata because there is something else in mind.

When you punch the maki or are doing any conditioning, you are not practicing kata. If you are conditioning a punch, you punch like you would in a fight...with you hands up. You don't see boxers pulling their hands back their hip. What you "see" in kata is not real. The kata is not the fight. It is a part of the fight. It is the part of the fight that happens after you have gotten out of the way, blocked, and distracted (usually).

Like I said, there are many makiwara training methods. One way is visualizing the grab, pulling the guy close to you as you hit him...er...the maki. When I punch, there are lots of things I can visualize and every punch I do can be slightly different depending on what I am thinking.

Another reason you are pulling to the ribs is to actually condition the body. But you can't simply pull the hand to the ribs. You have to be thinking about the isometric tension in the technique and where to focus on the body. For example, when you pull the hand to the ribs, think about your armpit. The Heart 1 tsubo point is there. If you get hit there, it could be detrimental to your happiness. So, pulling the fist to the ribs, pulling down with your lats, pushing out with your chest, and pushing the fist against your body actually strengthens the weak parts of your body that we know a trained practitioner is going to attempt to strike. This is one of the major functions of the kata Sanchin... to strengthen the numerous areas where vital areas are present so that when you do get hit there, your "armor" is protecting you. (I don't know why I bothered trying to write that...sounds like a martial minute topic to me...plug, plug)

Anyway, JT you seem to really be thinking a lot of this through...keep it up. If all we do is spark a little interest than we are doing our job. Hope this helps

Rob

 

[robertmrivers]

Oh

As for the heavy bag, I know everything "hits" back (at least that's what Newton says) but the maki actually "springs" back, like a catapault. Having this action available will add a little to the training. For example, if you put your feet together, then hit a heavy bag, sometimes the bag moves enough to where you are still standing there. But, if you hit a wall you will bounce off of the wall. The wall's stance is stronger than yours. When you hit the maki, you actually launch off of the board due to the spring action.

Its just something to add to your repertoire if you can find one.

Rob

 

[exile]

Oh

As for the heavy bag, I know everything "hits" back (at least that's what Newton says) but the maki actually "springs" back, like a catapault. Having this action available will add a little to the training. For example, if you put your feet together, then hit a heavy bag, sometimes the bag moves enough to where you are still standing there. But, if you hit a wall you will bounce off of the wall. The wall's stance is stronger than yours. When you hit the maki, you actually launch off of the board due to the spring action.

Its just something to add to your repertoire if you can find one.

Rob

The good thing about the heavy bag is that it punishes errors severely, so you better be accurate. A few times a week I go and do sets of kicks against a hanging 100lb bag, mostly rear-leg side kicks and roundhouse kicks. If you do a rear-leg side kick and your impact point isn't your heel, but is instead midfoot, you can really hurt your foot, beause all that force applied at that point into the unforgiving surface of the back winds up `jamming' your tendons at the top of your foot just where the foot and the lower leg meet. And the next day, you can have a hard time walking. As you might have guessed, I speak from bitter experience here...

Still, it's very good to have a major incentive not to make careless errors, eh?

 

[Chizikunbo]

Josh,
I went on line to look for Hanshi Gordon Garland’s book, entitled
“The Art of The Jo, Cane and Te no Euchi”.
I could not find it anywhere.

Please post the ISBN number and where you purchased it.

If you are able to pick up a copy and send it to me I will send you payment for what ever it costs. Thank you


Sensei Rivers,
Thank you for your input here on this subject…

If you could post the ISBN number for “Watashi no Karate Jutsu” I would appreciate it. I have trained in Motobu-Ha S h i t o-Ryu here in Michigan under Shihan Garner Train since 1997. Shihan Train is an excellent instructor, and trained directly under Soke Shogo Kuniba in his home in Virginia for 15 years. Much of what I teach with regard to Bunkai, Henka and Oyo came from this lineage.

I would enjoy anything written by the Motobu family.

Also, please contact me directly when you have a moment to talk. I would like to get to know you and if possible, get together for some good training…

248-561-5700


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

Hello Master Penfil,
Actually Garland Hanshi is a personal friend of mine, and he gave me a copy of his book, which was self published, and is no longer in production.
However I will email you on the subject.
If you are able to make it out to Michels wedding in may we should meet in the center sometime, as I would love to share some of these things with you...
--Josh

 

[Chizikunbo]

Master Jay:

1) None. I'm a Tang Soo Do student, there's not enough time or physical energy to train in another style, at least not for me. I practice one art as hard as I can push my body, so what I can do I can do better than if I spread myself around.

2) None. I don't consider that to be a requisite. I train under Sa Bom Nim Robert Venturino at the Oakmont C.S. Kim Karate school, International TSD Federation.

3) Although I almost exclusively train at my home school in Oakmont (I don't have a car or the money to be driving everywhere), I have trained at the main dojang in Monroeville, under C.S. Kim personally. That is also where I take my recertification tests. Through those, I've come into contact with other kyo sa nim and sa bom nim around the area. I also go to the National All-Martial Arts Tournament sponsored by Master Kim every year, held in Pittsburgh (again, I don't have a car or money, so I go to tournaments when I can and where I can), so that I can meet and compete against practicioners from other schools, not just TSD. If you want to "enlighten" me, I'll be there this May.

4) I learn what I learn in class, from my sa bom nims. What I say is what I've learned in class and as I practice the forms myself. Note that I have identified myself several times as an e-dan; I'm nowhere near a master.

What all of you don't seem to realize is that while I entirely respect other martial arts and their forms, especially ones from which TSD got its forms (btw, Hwang Kee didn't bring TSD to Korea --- TSD has been studied for centuries, as historical evidence shows), I do recognize that I train under TSD, so whatever similarities the forms I have learned will have with those of other styles, they are still separate forms, with potentially very different moves and different applications. I do not judge any form based on its moves, nor do I care if some people do some techniques differently due to style differences. All I ask is that nobody tell me that TSD is really only a debased or copied version of another martial art. The people who created and shaped TSD through the years got their ideas from all over the place: the Tang in Tang Soo Do is a reference to the Tang dynasty in China, and even on my dobok there are Chinese characters (according to the Korean mode). I fully accept that not all of the moves and forms of my style were created out of the blue by the original TSD masters.

I also fully believe, however, that the forms as they exist in TSD today are just as valid, and to learn them is to do them and to learn them well is to study what each move does. That does not implicitly require me going back previous to the creation of TSD to learn how to do do what has been handed down, in one form or another, over the 1500-year history of Tang Soo Do.


robertmrivers: I realize my post to you was a bit incensed, but I've put up with people downplaying the validity of TSD for a while now. Sorry for whatever undue offense you took from that. You will admit, though, that it sounds a bit odd for someone who doesn't study TSD to be lecturing those who do. You might also note that I didn't hinge my respect of the keema hyung completely on them being useful when you're against a wall; I like them more because they focus on movement control, timing, and proper technique. For being among the shortest of hyung, they pack a punch.

Jt,
I am really lost and again perplexed and confused as to your logic herein, I would suggest you open GM Hwang Kee's "Soo Bahk Do Tang Soo Do Vol 1" and read from the Preface, from which I quote "...Korean proverb: The Monk was not interested in the (religious) Service, but was only interested in taking the food after the Service"...
This has profound relevence here, you can go to your dojang everyday, every week every month, for years on end, perform the hyung, perform the hyung, but this will not get you to the heart of the art. Performing a sequence of movements means nothing without a true effort to seek out the real contents of them. It would appear as though you are enjoy TSD (or you would not be here), and yet you do not want to reach into the unknown waters of what is really there. If you think of hyung as being static exercises of blocks, kicks, and strikes, you will never achieve success. Master Penfil and others have put alot of time and effort into trying to open your eyes to the rest of the world, and yet you refuse to acknowledge the truth only seeing to your door, not what awaits outside of it. The level of knowledge of some of the instructors on this forum is often unmatched, take advantage to the full! You are not going to betray your style, or instructor(s) by looking beyond as it is the only way the we can progress as human beings, by putting ourselves out there to learn and understand. I suggest you take some serious time to do your research into the REAL history of this art, and then the pieces fall together in harmony, but you have to take the step. Confucious once said 'The journy of a lifetime begins with a single step' put on your shoes and go, because the world awaits. Just because TSD came from other styles does not make it a lesser system or DO, but refusing to understand the undiscovered true knowledge of the art we all practice and hold dear is doing the art no service...
On a final note, "In order to drink from the river, you must first empty your own cup"...strive to cultivate an open and vast mind called "Kong Shim" in Korean...best wishes on your journey!
Tang Soo!
--Josh

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Chizikunbo: You should read all of the posts after that (though it might take a couple hours) before commenting on something I posted several pages ago.

If you'd read that, you'd know that I've stated over and over again that I most certainly do not see hyung as either (1)static or (2)just series of techniques. They are not static because humans change, and ideas change. They are not just series of techniques because each of those techniques has to be doing something, and there are combat applications behind each of the hyung. I do actually look into this quite intently while trying to better my form. It's easy to learn to put your body into certain positions, but that's just performing. Hyung are a lot more than that.

 

[Chizikunbo]

Many apologies JT, I realize that last night after I posted that, but alas cannot figure out how to delete it, In any case good luck with your study.
--josh

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

JT

Thanks for the comments. I was punching with one hand because the camera was on that side! Your
My fist is not vertical...it is a 3/4 punch, about 45 degrees from being horizontal. As I said, there are many ways to hit the maki. This is my preferred way as it is also a typical way of hitting in Okinawa. Motobu Sensei taught me his (and his father's) method as well which is actually a little different. There are so many ways to do it.

The purpose of hitting the maki with the 3/4 punch is that when you actually make contact with the target, you're fist is not completely twisted. If it is, as in a typical TSD punch (or any punch from kata) then you are snapping your technique on the surface of the target. You should make contact at the 1/2 to 3/4 mark and the remaining twist is your follow through...you need penetrating power...not snapping power. You don't actually see the remaining twist on the maki because the board is pressing back on your arm and it just won't twist. You need to punch differently (and with less power) if you want to roll the hand over. If you hit the maki enough, it teaches you how to punch correctly. Making contact at that 3/4 mark (at the distance I was at, anyway...the fist is at a different position depending on the range) gives me the maximum musculo-skeletal strength to support my strongest punch (hitting with my whole body).

You need to blast the heck out of that bag JT! Its there, put it to work! When it is all said and done, conditioning is conditioning. Anything is better than nothing. A heavy bag is actually the next best thing so hit it! I can show you how to make a makiwara. You may not be able to put it up at the dojo, but you can have one at your home...and you don't have to do Okinawan Karate to have one. If you want it, build it. I think you'd like it.

The purpose of the maki...and why we don't only hit a heavy bag, is the maki hits you back...if your arm is out of position, punching with the wrong knuckles, too much wrist twist, not enough hip, sloppy stance, etc the maki will "bite" you back. The oak plank is really stiff and offers a ton of resistance as soon as you make contact. It is truly one of the best teachers in the dojo...better than some of my black belts!! (just kidding).

Rob

Sensei Rivers,
I have to disagree with this post (in only some areas). We as westerners have, in the process of striving to be the strongest, toughest, most powerful of all martial practitioners have taken our training to such extremes that we have in many cases involved ourselves in “SELF-DAMAGING” training.

It is extremely important to incorporate impact training such as heavy bag and makiwara in order to develop focus, power, timing and depth perception. It is more important to keep in mind where the energy is going to wind up at the end of each repetition, and the long-term effects of such training.

I have seen in past years, many of my instructors from Korean, Japanese and Okinawan systems go through hip and knee replacements do to such “over-training”. The energy will, without exception, always return to your body and take its toll on your joints and spine.

Rather than pressing on the thought that one should; “blast the heck out of that bag”, it would be better to discuss correct structural alignment and use of power to develop the highest level of ability, without a state of “over-kill”.

The second paragraph of this post is on the money, but I will add to the thought process here…

In most Japanese and Korean systems, as well as some Okinawan systems practitioners are taught to rotate the fist to a position that has all of the knuckles on the same level (side to side). The problem with this is that such rotation causes the ulna and radial bones to pull on the humorous, causing the humorous to rotate out of the shoulder socket. This causes the connection to the Latissimous Dorsi and the Teres Major to be stretched out and left unable to hold the shoulder in tact at the point of contact.
(See illustration from Grey’s Anatomy at this web address: http://www.bartleby.com/107/illus412.html)

This rotation will also cause the Trapezius to become engaged, causing possible damage to the cervical spine. This is do to the manor in which the Trapezius connects from the shoulder to the spinal column. When Martial arts practitioners are taught to keep their shoulders squared to the front (the opponent) this issue is worsened.
(See illustration from Grey’s Anatomy at this web address: http://www.bartleby.com/107/111.html#i385)

When I discuss correct verses incorrect alignment as taught by many associations I am in almost all cases referring to what is safe for he practitioners own structure during the execution of the technique, as well as the practitioners ability to successfully execute the technique, without having his/her body collapse on impact due to incorrect alignment.

I have studies skeletal structure, muscle expansion and contraction, along with breathing techniques for different kinds of movement for 35 years. It is a necessity for anyone learning martial arts to establish a serious understanding of the human body and how it works (and can be damaged), in order to develop fully.

With regard to the impacting point and the rotation of the fist during punching:
I teach my students that they should not start to rotate their fist at all prior to making impact. They should train themselves to make contact at the point that the elbow is at a 135 degree angle. If they rotate the fist prior to contact, they have already spent their power. If they make contact prior to reaching the 135 degree angle and meet serious resistance, they will be jammed, and the punch will be wasted and useless. If they make contact after the 135 degree angle is achieved, they will not have enough penetration left to cause the needed trauma to drop the aggressor. If they make contact at the 135 degree angle (with proper body position) and can than drive through their target with full force, and the rotating of the fist will increase the torque behind the punch.

It is important to understand proper hip rotation at this point as well. To simply “blast” the striking apparatus without all connection points working together is a waste of time.

Remember:
Mass repetitions of incorrect technique will NEVER teach the practitioner how to improve themselves. It will only make them stronger in the wrong fashion.

Correct execution is what builds us in a positive fashion…


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[robertmrivers]

Amen Jay san

Oh, the "blast the heck" statement was more of a "stop letting the bag collect dust in the corner" statement. I agree with you one hundred percent. You can hit too hard and it is not good for you. A lot of people try to get the heaviest bag or I have even seen people triple up on the boards on the makiwara. Whatever you hit has to flex as to not jar the body in a detrimental way. In chinese medicine, the lung, heart, small intestine and large intestine run through the wrist. It is taught that if you are punching too hard or are hitting a target that does not give enough that the wrist joint is being jarred in turn jarring these meridian points which can hurt your well-being. I also know people who have serious health issues form repeatedly breaking bricks, and ice.

Great physiological references by the way. I am going to add those to my library immediately. Thanks.

Rob

 

[exile]

In most Japanese and Korean systems, as well as some Okinawan systems practitioners are taught to rotate the fist to a position that has all of the knuckles on the same level (side to side)...

With regard to the impacting point and the rotation of the fist during punching: teach my students that they should not start to rotate their fist at all prior to making impact. They should train themselves to make contact at the point that the elbow is at a 135 degree angle. If they rotate the fist prior to contact, they have already spent their power. If they make contact prior to reaching the 135 degree angle and meet serious resistance, they will be jammed, and the punch will be wasted and useless. If they make contact after the 135 degree angle is achieved, they will not have enough penetration left to cause the needed trauma to drop the aggressor. If they make contact at the 135 degree angle (with proper body position) and can than drive through their target with full force, and the rotating of the fist will increase the torque behind the punch.

This makes excellent sense to me; I've seen somewhere an anatomical comparison of a full-twist punch and a 3/4 and it's very clear that in the former, the radius and ulna cross over each other, which is a distinctly weaker skeletal platform for delivering force than the corresponding bone configuraiton in the 3/4 punch, in which both bones are aligned straight, so that they wind up parallel to each other. A full-twist punch into a heavy bag, from my own experiments, puts much greater stress on your forearm as a result. It feels insecure and weak, as vs. the 3/4 punch, which feels, by comparison, like a steel battering ram. Way better wrist support—it's not even close!

It is important to understand proper hip rotation at this point as well. To simply “blast” the striking apparatus without all connection points working together is a waste of time.

Also true. The correct application of hip torque yields tremendous power in every punch, even the front-hand jab. It just takes lots and lots of practice...

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Good points all, Master Jay. When thinking about how I'd punch, it's clear to me that I'd never be making contact at the point where my fist is level anyway. The twist around is, as I said before, to add a twist into the punch, so that you pull the skin, making it hurt quite a bit even if you don't whale on the person full blast (believe me, my instructor's done that to me more than a few times).

I also agree about the point when you start twisting. I'm taught to keep my fist palm-side up until my elbow has just passed my body, leaving the snap for the very end, so that the moment of impact still has all that power behind it.

That philosophy shows up all over the place, in fact. Looking at keema hyung cho dan, with the two-fisted blocks/strikes to either side (or, if you want to see it probably a better and more accurate way, the shoulder grab and throw to the ground) the snap comes at the very end. So when you bring your left fist against your neck, pick up your left foot and stomp, the left hand stays palm-inward until the end, so all the snap comes with all the power; same goes for the other side (that second snap is going to help if you think of it as a throw too, I'd think). It's one of the things I'm always having to pound into the heads of my juniors when I'm tasked with teaching/working with them on (for example) a hyung.

 

[Makalakumu]

We have about 4 different discussions going in this thread that deserve their own thread. Please check out some of the new threads that I'm going to start on these topics and please feel free to share information that was shared here in those threads.

There is alot of golden stuff buried deep in this thread and it needs to be unlocked...

 

[exile]

We have about 4 different discussions going in this thread that deserve their own thread. Please check out some of the new threads that I'm going to start on these topics and please feel free to share information that was shared here in those threads.

There is alot of golden stuff buried deep in this thread and it needs to be unlocked...

Sounds great, UpNKy—bring it on!!