Kuk Sool Won's - 'KI-Cho Hyung' Applications
- Thread starter Doomx2001
- Start date
oftheherd1
Senior Master
I guess this sort of goes to your reply in my thread in the Hapkido forum. Kuk Sool Won was probably absorbed into TKD in the past and therefore there aren't many practitioners of that art as a specific art. Anyone know if it was one that was absorbed?
OP
OP
Doomx2001
Green Belt
I think you may be thinking of a different martial art if I'm not mistaken.
Kuk Sool Won started sometime in the early 60's by some of forefathers of hapkido today. These men were students of Hapkido (Korean flavored Aikijujutsu as taught by GM Choi), Tae Kyun (ancient kicking art of Korea that survived Japanese occupation), some Shotokan as it was the forerunner to many TaeKwonDo styles before they merged, and finally many different Kung Fu styles that were taught by Chinese immigrants who fled the Boxer Rebellion in China. These Kung Fu styles include Tai Chi Manits, Southern Mantis, Kempo (not the kenpo we know here in america, as kempo is basically a generic blend of martial arts that vary from instructor to instructor and not as a single 'style'.) The Kempo was refered by the koreans sometimes as Gwon Bop or PalChigi (I can't spell).
The above is my respective version of KSW history (which could be totally wrong, I wasn't there, so I really don't know), though the official KSW history states that In Hyuk Suh learned the bulk of what he knows from his grandfather I think who said to be a Royal Court Officer. But the official history of KSW also states that In Hyuk Suh took the time to study various martial arts in Korean that were avaiable at the time form KSW.
Anyway, all this stuff was organized together into one system of martial arts that today we know as Kuk Sool Won. The original idea, I think, was for it to be THE KOREAN MARTIAL ART. A national art. It didn't really pan out that way though for not KSW, but also for Hapkido (as the art couldn't unify like TaeKwonDo did), and Hwarang Do. In the end TaeKwonDo won out as the Korean National art.
But, as far as I understand, Kuk Sool Won really has nothing to do with Tae Kwon Do, and is still going strong today with it's headquaters here in America, California I think, with variations of the style taught nationwide, and world wide.
The reason I went into the 'history' of KSW and all that was to make sure we was talking about the same art.
I wonder what style you was referring to? Surely it an't the same one!?
I could be wrong about what I said, though, you never know.:idunno:
- Doomx2001
dancingalone
Grandmaster
My time in KSW was short but I don't believe the forms are intended to teach live applications at all. That's what the kibon sool series and so on are for. The forms are more for developing flow and grace.
OP
OP
Doomx2001
Green Belt
Thanks for replying. I was thinking the same thing. There are alot of movements in the forms that suggest that they have a meaning, but as you said, it's more about flow, and grace. For me, when I train in the forms, I try to visualize fighting an oppenent, or multiple attackers. I've been messing around trying to come up with my own interpretations for the forms. I was hoping someone else had done the same.
Sabunimfrank64
Yellow Belt
There are "bunkai" for the kuk sool hyungs but you need a good knowledge of them to figure them out
Sabunimfrank64
Yellow Belt
I know this is a old post but as a kuk sool practitioner there are bunkai/bu hae to the kuk sool forms divided into beginner intermediate an advanced it took me a few yrs to unravel as my teacher gave me the knowledge in small bites
dvcochran
Grandmaster
To make sure we are on the same page, Ki Cho Hyung (Il, Ee, Sam) are the three basic forms? I never really considered them as being heavy in bunkai. The first two poomse are one kind of punch, one kind of block, and one kind of stance so very, very basic. I feel it is more about becoming familiar with a stance, punch, block. Usually too early to grasp much of anything. Just my thoughts. If I am wrong on Ki Cho Hyung in KSW please explain.
ancient warrior
Yellow Belt
Ksw isn't taught like that it's only about movement in the early belts
Sabunimfrank64
Yellow Belt
I've had over 20 +yrs in ksw and do know the applications of the forms my teacher showed me small bites of ideas let me uncover the rest i was his private student from red belt to my current rank and then his assistant instructor for his schools
ClA
White Belt
By "uncover" the rest, do you mean majority of the movements have combat applications? Now, when you say "bites of ideas" are those official applications? Or just something your instructor "suggested" could be useful?
I remembered a student asked Master Barry Harmon what the movements were for, his reply was, "They are up to your imagination". If someone as high up as Harmon didn't have an answer, I can only imagine the whole KSW community are just coming up with random applications they see fit.
I honestly can not imagine any instructor with pride and confident will not want to show off what they can do or their knowledge. There are no secrets or hidden applications. Kuk Sool forms are just artistic dances, and I didn't say this as an insult.
I have a feeling the founders saw some movements from different arts, copied it but hasn't learned what they were for. Without a doubt KSW is based off of Japanese and Chinese arts, the Koreans haven't invented anything. If they are not teaching applications to the forms, my opinion is they don't know it.
ClA
White Belt
Thank you for your "welcome".
I am not a student of Master Harmon. I have seen him a few times at annual seminars. I have a black belt in KSW, among other things.
I am basing my opinion on the higher ranking members of the community that I have met, such as instructors and school owners. Seems like majority of the form applications that they "suggested" came from other arts they have cross trained themselves and not directly from KSW's teaching.
For example, you can ask what a movement is for and an instructor would tell you, "oh it is a choke" or "it is a foot sweep" but you know he says this because he took a few BJJ/Karate classes and substituted techniques into KSW forms in an attempt to explain the movements. You can watch the same forms on Youtube and no one will do it "that way" so clearly the applications were the instructor's own ideas.
A good way to find out is if you ask different instructors what form movements are for and they give you different answers. Try a Wing Chun-er, even if the instructor personalized the applications (difference in body type, strength, etc), it will not be too far off of what other WCers do within the system. That is because the forms came from applications, not the other way around.
Imagining applications would be "easy" to do with hand forms. But the Kuk Sool Won sword forms will be tough to explain... that is because so few KSWers have actual Japanese sword training to justify applications and those that do know the KSW sword form is suicidal in practice.
Techniques should make the forms. Forms shouldn't be created and then try to figure out how the movements can become actual techniques. I think this is what most KSWers have difficulties with.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I see this problem as the watering down of TMA in general as it/they get farther away from the original practices. I believe there is value in most of the original techniques. The simple language gap between Founders/Masters, and the first few generations of Instructors has been problematic at best. There has been an awful lot of interpretation, some good some bad. Also the apparent tendency for "A" type personalities taking on a teaching mantle in MA has it's own flaws at times. One of the most valuable phrases said in the engineering world is "I don't know". The gist is, the incorrect explanation of techniques isn't contained to any one style or system. It exist in all of them. This is one of the big values in being affiliated with a style or system, assuming as instructor you are proactive in staying current and using any teaching tools offered.
ClA
White Belt
I would agree in some Chinese MA but... KSW Founders are still alive today and active, his sons currently manage the association. So this isn't a watered down KSW or lost in translation, this IS the original.
Again I use WC for example. The female founder Ng Mei is long dead, but applications are still there. Jigoro Kano is dead, but Judo techniques are the same. Helio Gracie is dead, but an armbar is still an armbar. A first day newbie can ask any BJJ blue belt why they do shrimps on the mats and they will give you the same answer, because movement came from applications, not the other way around.
When the founders of a style can't explain the forms, then it is reasonable to conclude t hat there are no applications to the movements.
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