Knee pain suggestions.

JowGaWolf

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My front kicks can't reliably reach the face
Here's a kung fu secret. Front kicks don't have to reach the face in order to be useful. Use them to destroy everything from the lower ribs down and you'll have a dangerous weapon. Not all kicks have to travel to the face. Hopefully this will help you to gain more use out of your front kick.

I can't help you with the other kick as we do not have them in Jow Ga and as a result we don't train them much.
 

Bill Mattocks

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But I don't wanna have bad body mechanics :(. People at the dojo say my low roundhouse has bad mechanics because I tend to not "drop my weight into it each time" but the higher it goes they say the better I am at doing them.

If it is bad from I guess I can post a video later to see what's going on.

I have a question here. If the "people at the dojo" know enough to know your body mechanics are bad, why are they not fixing them with you? If they are, why are you not following your instructions?

I'm not adverse to seeing your video, but don't you think you should be asking your instructor about the issue and seeking his or her advice on how to fix it?
 

tkdmaster78

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I been working on my roundhouse kicks a lot lately, and other kicks as well. And my knees ache. I looked at the anatomy of the knee pinned thread for advice but the page it has linked there is no longer available.

I mean I could go to the doctor but they are just going order and x-ray and that takes awhile. I will still do it to be safe but I'm wondering if there is anything you guys do for knee pain and treatment.

I have the same problem and I've had it for years. It doesn't get better with time. The snapping motions inherent in most kicks are punishing to the knees. When you kick air with no bag or target, it makes the problem worse.

Best you can do is not snap your kicks at 100% during training. Go maybe 75% snap at the most during class. Always hold something back. Be sure to rest between classes, take time off occasionally, and cross train. :)
 

JowGaWolf

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The snapping motions inherent in most kicks are punishing to the knees. When you kick air with no bag or target, it makes the problem worse.
If it hurts when kicking at 100% while doing air kicks, then my guess would be that you are sending the energy (force) incorrectly when you kick. Similar when people try to "snap" their jabs, where the force is sent out through the elbow and not the end of the fist. Similar things happens with kicks, such as the front heel kick, front snap kick. I can only assume that this issue would exist in roundhouse kicks that "snap." I think the problem starts with terminology because you really aren't snapping the kick. You are pulling the kick back and not actually snapping it. I understand not all styles kick this way and actually snap the kick which works for performance and show of skill but not practical in fighting as leaving the leg up would put the person at risk.

I think students get the wrong visualization when kicks and punches are described to student as "snapping." When the student first feels a snapping in their limbs then he or she may assume that they are doing it correctly. With the exception of conditioning and strength building. None of the kicks and punches should inflict self-damage when punching or kicking in the air. This is where the saying "if it hurts then you are doing it wrong." applies; either that or you your body naturally does not like the kick due to it's physical make up (weak ligaments and tendons, out of place tendons, old injuries, age, etc)
 

tkdmaster78

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If it hurts when kicking at 100% while doing air kicks, then my guess would be that you are sending the energy (force) incorrectly when you kick. Similar when people try to "snap" their jabs, where the force is sent out through the elbow and not the end of the fist. Similar things happens with kicks, such as the front heel kick, front snap kick. I can only assume that this issue would exist in roundhouse kicks that "snap." I think the problem starts with terminology because you really aren't snapping the kick. You are pulling the kick back and not actually snapping it. I understand not all styles kick this way and actually snap the kick which works for performance and show of skill but not practical in fighting as leaving the leg up would put the person at risk.

I think students get the wrong visualization when kicks and punches are described to student as "snapping." When the student first feels a snapping in their limbs then he or she may assume that they are doing it correctly. With the exception of conditioning and strength building. None of the kicks and punches should inflict self-damage when punching or kicking in the air. This is where the saying "if it hurts then you are doing it wrong." applies; either that or you your body naturally does not like the kick due to it's physical make up (weak ligaments and tendons, out of place tendons, old injuries, age, etc)

I should mention that it doesn't hurt at the time. It hurts over time as repetitions increase from 10s to 100s to 1000s to 10000s, etc. I didn't start to have any knee pain at all until I had been doing Taekwondo and Hapkido full time for about five years, so it wasn't a question of doing the technique wrong. Basically, once I got up around the 1000th class mark, that's when my knee problems started.

It's not uncommon to see master instructors having hip replacements, knee replacements, and other surgery to fix problems caused by repetitive kicking exercises.

When I say "snapping", I am referring to the additional whip-like motion that is commonly placed on kicks to add force rather than swinging the limb through the air purely on momentum. It would take about 10 pages to describe this in text but I won't attempt that here because it's outside the scope of the post. :)
 

JowGaWolf

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It's not uncommon to see master instructors having hip replacements, knee replacements, and other surgery to fix problems caused by repetitive kicking exercises.
This would be more than enough to make me question the training, conditioning and strengthening exercises, and the technique.

It's like when people say that Kung Fu injures the knees. When I hear that I think if they are using the correct structures or if they are doing conditioning exercises that help strengthen the tendons.

Then you have the challenge of doing 1000 kicks perfectly. As the body loses endurance, the more the person is at risk for doing the technique incorrectly.

Then there is also the issue of not giving the body enough time to repair especially as we age.
 

TSDTexan

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This would be more than enough to make me question the training, conditioning and strengthening exercises, and the technique.

It's like when people say that Kung Fu injures the knees. When I hear that I think if they are using the correct structures or if they are doing conditioning exercises that help strengthen the tendons.

Then you have the challenge of doing 1000 kicks perfectly. As the body loses endurance, the more the person is at risk for doing the technique incorrectly.

Then there is also the issue of not giving the body enough time to repair especially as we age.

Bad kung fu(an oxymoron) injures knees whether it's bad in student who knows what the correct technique is, but doesn't do it, or bad instructor passing on incorrect training.

But this isn't limited to CMA... it applies to all fighting arts.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Here's a kung fu secret. Front kicks don't have to reach the face in order to be useful. Use them to destroy everything from the lower ribs down and you'll have a dangerous weapon. Not all kicks have to travel to the face. Hopefully this will help you to gain more use out of your front kick.

I can't help you with the other kick as we do not have them in Jow Ga and as a result we don't train them much.
Oh, I still use them, just not as often for power. I don't tend to go low with power strikes, so there are fewer targets for power with a front kick than for the round kicks. And then there's my crappy toe - can't really front kick with the left foot with any power, nor low. Besides, round kicks are more fun to practice.
 

tkdmaster78

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This would be more than enough to make me question the training, conditioning and strengthening exercises, and the technique.

It's like when people say that Kung Fu injures the knees. When I hear that I think if they are using the correct structures or if they are doing conditioning exercises that help strengthen the tendons.

Then you have the challenge of doing 1000 kicks perfectly. As the body loses endurance, the more the person is at risk for doing the technique incorrectly.

Then there is also the issue of not giving the body enough time to repair especially as we age.

I wouldn't say the martial art injures the knees. In most cases it comes down to overuse, wear and tear, etc.

A perfect example would be a runner: If you run once in a while, chances are your knees will be fine. If you run 10k (or miles if you prefer) every single day, that accumulated pounding on the joints will cause knee injuries. You can lessen it by stepping correctly, reducing body weight, and wearing proper shoes, but it can't be eliminated.

Since martial arts is preparation to defend oneself in a fight, and given that the actions taken in a fight are violent and cause extreme stress on the body, it only makes sense that students will experience injury to the joints (especially the knee) over time because of the incredible amount of torque that is placed on them during kicking exercises, especially if they always kick full force and pile up many years doing it. Your body is like a car: it's not the age, it's the mileage that does you in. You can be old at 30 or young at 50, depending on how you live your life. :)

A kick or punch isn't powerful unless the body is "loaded" immediately prior to executing it. That "loading" refers to the built-up spring-like tension that the body has to produce prior to releasing a kick. Everything from tension in the feet and knees to tension in the hips and upper body (like a snake coiling before striking). Without that loaded spring, the kicks are empty and powerless. By its very nature, loading up that spring involves putting pressure on the ligaments in the knees.

I'm no doctor by any means, but I've got entire books on improving Knee health written by doctors, and I've discussed it at length with my family doctor.

Today, my knees are doing a lot better than they were. They'll never be 100% again, but a reduction in kicking combined with using less kicking force during training has helped immensely. :D
 
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Ironbear24

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The issue seemed to be excessive training and occasionally rotating on the balance leg improperly. It was so small I didn't catch the mistake so over time it added more strain in the knees.
 

JowGaWolf

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The issue seemed to be excessive training and occasionally rotating on the balance leg improperly. It was so small I didn't catch the mistake so over time it added more strain in the knees.
Glad you found out what was going on.
 

TSDTexan

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The issue seemed to be excessive training and occasionally rotating on the balance leg improperly. It was so small I didn't catch the mistake so over time it added more strain in the knees.
Did you read the link I posted
 

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