In kata, there are a number of techniques that would seem to indicate that one is delivering kicks or stomps in the clinch. Lets discuss some of these applications because its not something you see in most karate dojos.
Kicking in the clinch
- Thread starter Makalakumu
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Have you got a vid or two of the kata where these moves show up, UpN?
OP
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- #3
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...inawan+chinto&ei=ml0TSLDTBpzA4AL2rtXeBA&hl=en
Here's Hohan Soken performing chinto. Pay particular attention to the latter half of the kata. Watch his feet.
Here's Hohan Soken performing chinto. Pay particular attention to the latter half of the kata. Watch his feet.
OP
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- #4
Lots of stomps and kicks in Kyan no chinto
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=788210261194949443&q=chinto&ei=cV4TSIWXB5m05AKW3PjhBA&hl=en
Lots of them are being performed after tuite techniques.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=788210261194949443&q=chinto&ei=cV4TSIWXB5m05AKW3PjhBA&hl=en
Lots of them are being performed after tuite techniques.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #5
Itosu Rohai
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5046303026424508985&q=Rohai&ei=cF8TSOa1A4Xw4QLhrbXoBA&hl=en
Interesting kicking combinations about halfway through. Seem to indicate footsweeps or low strikings to the legs while clinched.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5046303026424508985&q=Rohai&ei=cF8TSOa1A4Xw4QLhrbXoBA&hl=en
Interesting kicking combinations about halfway through. Seem to indicate footsweeps or low strikings to the legs while clinched.
Much appreciated, UpN.... will view those as soon as I get the chance!
OP
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- #7
This was the kata I had in mind when I started this thread. Here's the Isshin Ryu version of Kusanku. Notice all of the short front kicks that are performed after a grab of some kind.
There's also a version of Chinto floating around that uses very similar kicks except that the grabbing techniques are performed with both hands and uke is standing face to face with tori.
The kicks are all to low level targets and are pretty nasty. I also wonder how kicks like that would set up other techniques, like throws.
There's also a version of Chinto floating around that uses very similar kicks except that the grabbing techniques are performed with both hands and uke is standing face to face with tori.
The kicks are all to low level targets and are pretty nasty. I also wonder how kicks like that would set up other techniques, like throws.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #8
One thing that I've always read and something I've practiced a bit with my students, is that back stances and one legged stances all indicated low line kicks of some kind. If this really is the case, then kicking in the clinch is a very common tool in the karateka's arsenel.
Zero
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Thanks for those links and a good question. I'm prety sure if what the kata are indicating is a clinch situation, then the foot movement can only be representative of a low kick to shin/knee (at highest) or a foot stomp such as to bridge of foot. When the kicks are getting higher up they cannot be linked to being at the same time in a clinch, no way; they are a transition from moving away from the body-body distance involved in a holding/clinching position.
From a practical point of view that makes sense as if you are in a close grip scenario with your opponent ie holding onto lapels or a muay thai neck clinch you would never want to lift your leg that high and for that long - too open to sweeps and imbalancing. Even with lower torso-height kicks you would tend to be too cramped to pull them off effectively or safely. It can be easy enough to catch and trap a leg from a knee strike and sweep the support leg, let alone someone sticking their foot up at that height. Way back when fighting point competition I used to sometimes grab an opponent's sleeve and execute a head kick, normally hook kick, but this was when they would extend their hand and leave it out there and generally when they were weaker physically than me. Not something I'd ever try to do at a closer range
From a practical point of view that makes sense as if you are in a close grip scenario with your opponent ie holding onto lapels or a muay thai neck clinch you would never want to lift your leg that high and for that long - too open to sweeps and imbalancing. Even with lower torso-height kicks you would tend to be too cramped to pull them off effectively or safely. It can be easy enough to catch and trap a leg from a knee strike and sweep the support leg, let alone someone sticking their foot up at that height. Way back when fighting point competition I used to sometimes grab an opponent's sleeve and execute a head kick, normally hook kick, but this was when they would extend their hand and leave it out there and generally when they were weaker physically than me. Not something I'd ever try to do at a closer range
Explorer
Blue Belt
Heck, I see short range kicks EVERYWHERE in EVERY KATA. I was taught that every step is a kick ... or a knee strike ... or a sweep ... or a step. The application depended on what the attacker was doing...
punisher73
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Alot of people think of the "clinch" in terms of a skilled fighter either someone who knows Muay Thai, or a greco-roman wrestler. If you watch two unskilled people go at it, they will clinch up just like boxers do. So I think it would be stand to reason if katas include techniques against other kinds of grabs and attacks that they would have had answers to an opponent that clinches.
I know I'm probably preaching to the choir, but katas are not set in stone. They illustrate certain concepts and principles and use techniques to show them, but they do not contain ALL the various options that can be understood. For example as I'm drawing my right hand back to the left hip (cup and saucer position found in many katas) I can do a rake across the eyes or an ear slap as I bring it across. Is it explicitly spelled out as such? No, it is understood that once a person got to that point they would understand certain things from their basics and other exercises.
Back to kicking. If I step forward, what am I doing? Am I gaining position on a close attacker? Am I closing the distance on an attacker? If we use the premise that all of our kicks are exagerrated steps, than it is easy to insert those concepts into the katas without changing it.
I know I'm probably preaching to the choir, but katas are not set in stone. They illustrate certain concepts and principles and use techniques to show them, but they do not contain ALL the various options that can be understood. For example as I'm drawing my right hand back to the left hip (cup and saucer position found in many katas) I can do a rake across the eyes or an ear slap as I bring it across. Is it explicitly spelled out as such? No, it is understood that once a person got to that point they would understand certain things from their basics and other exercises.
Back to kicking. If I step forward, what am I doing? Am I gaining position on a close attacker? Am I closing the distance on an attacker? If we use the premise that all of our kicks are exagerrated steps, than it is easy to insert those concepts into the katas without changing it.
