Ken Corona Hwarangdo?

[shesulsa]

We could also argue the point that the fact an organization exists doesn't mean its authority is right or wrong - it is just an organization. We could parallel this analysis with any organization in history - the NRA, NASA, WHO, the Nazis, PLO...you name it. They are/were all organizations - some have favorable reputations, others don't and they all exude power over certain entities for certain purposes...don't they? Does that mean everything they do is right? or wrong? What about the intentions behind the actions of these organizations?

Let's say there is a neighborhood organization that says you must choose between three different colors (all very similar) for the exterior paint of your home and three different colors (again, all very similar) for the exterior trim of your home. What if the base color is gunmetal grey and the accent color is hot pink? And it's that way because the Neighborhood Association says that's the way it's got to be. Do you have to like it? Are you gonna do it? You're a member of the neighborhood association, aren't you? Or...don't you recognize the beauty in that combination of colors? Are they right or are you right? Or are you both wrong?

I wonder if this is enough to tickle the grey matter...or if my grey matter is tickled...or if grey matter is actually grey...maybe it's gunmetal grey with hot pink accents...or maybe it doesn't really matter....

 

[C. G. Lopez]

To Create a Cult you must have three things, the first is an authority figure/ group/ icon/ idol. [size=+1]Authority[/size]
([size=-1]claims to receive knowledge from a “Higher source” guro/sifu/icon/god)[/size]

[size=+1]Terminology[/size]
([size=-1]When the “group” uses the same terms as the “Authority” they begin to see things colored by the same perceptions as the authority. They are all on the same page. The clever use of language helps control the groups perceptions, ideas, and thoughts.) [/size][size=+1]Ritual[/size]
[size=-1](the authority uses ritual to control[/size]
[size=-1] the groups “actions” in a physical sense.[/size]
[size=-1] This is done by controlling associations,[/size]
[size=-1] relationships, and the groups “time”)[/size]

[size=+1] This “authority” figure must claim to receive its information and “legitimacy” from a “higher source”. A sifu, guro, Icon, master, or even God himself. The source of the authorities legacy is to a certain degree perceived as infallible, and as such, becomes a sacred cow.[/size]
[size=+1] In the Martial Arts world this is done by tracing “lineage” back to a mystical source. A keeper of the magic book.[/size]
[size=+1] In the religious world this is done by tracing the source of information back to a prophet, or to God himself. The Authority must set themselves up as the mouthpiece of God on Earth. The keepers of truth.[/size]

A meeting of the JKD elite

[size=+1]The next essential element is terminology. Terminology allows the authority the ability to make the group perceive and express the same ideas as the authority. If you are performing a “foute”, “Jeet Tek”, or “teep” you are to a degree expressing a “style”. If you are simply “kicking” then you are expressing yourself. An Authority will always prefer you express “their style”, and not yourself.[/size]

[size=+1] In religious cults the use of language serves to create a distinction not between “styles” as in Martial Arts, but between the authorities “truth”, and lies, or the “world”. If we say “we are in the truth” then others are by proxy must be “in a lie”. Although this may go unstated, the implication is absolute. It is necessary for all cult authorities to create an environment of “us vs them”. This is done through the clever use of language, “terminology”.[/size]

[size=+1] [/size][size=-1]Us vs them[/size]
[size=-1] Insiders vs outsiders[/size]
[size=-1] The tribe vs the enemy[/size]
[size=-1] The sacred vs the profane[/size]





[size=+1]Governments will often use language for the same purpose. Repeated often enough “repetition for emphasis” (a form of brainwashing), the ideas the government wish to get across often become truths in the public mind.[/size]

[size=+1]For example:[/size]

[size=-1] We give foreign aid they export revolution[/size]
[size=-1] We inform they use propaganda[/size]
[size=-1] We defend ourselves they are aggressors[/size]
[size=-1] Our missiles are designed to deter theirs designed to strike[/size]
[size=-1] We have “defensive” weapons they have offensive weapons[/size]

[size=+1] The final ingredient to an unhealthy organization, and a successful cult is the use of ritual. Ritual is designed to control the time and relationships of the group. This in turn helps control the group’s actions.[/size]

[size=+1]What does that mean? Here is a simple example. In ancient Rome most legionnaires would never throw a spear in anger. Especially during the famous era of roman peace. As such the government constantly kept the legions working. Building walls, towns, and structures. Keeping the legions busy, and controlling the legions “time”, kept the legions from thinking long and hard about the Roman governments decisions, and possibly becoming a threat and considering an overthrow.[/size]

[size=+1]In Martial Arts ritual is used to control a students time and relationships. Higher ranking students often train separately from lower ranking students, and encouraged not to fraternize. Their training sessions are often secret. This prevents the beginning student from forming a clear picture of where this “art” eventually leads, and thus becoming disillusioned.[/size]

[size=+1]The elaborate use of ritual, and rigid class structure keeps the student occupied during class time. Without their own “time” to explore the information in class, and spar in an “alive” manner, they are never afforded the opportunity to discover that what they are learning will not actually work.[/size] [size=+1]It also helps keep the student “in his place”. Which is to say that he is discouraged through the use of ritual from ever questioning the authority figure in any way.[/size]

[size=+1] Another way Martial Arts Guro’s exert control on their organizations is by discouraging the students from training at other schools or Gyms. Some extreme organizations even kick out students who attend other classes, as this is deemed “disloyal”![/size]

[size=+1] In religion ritual is use for the same purpose. Devotees are often discouraged from associating with outsiders. In extreme cults the Organization will often go so far as to “excommunicate” people for associating with certain individuals! This control of the group’s relationships helps keep the group in line with the authorities ideas. Just as with the military, religious cults must also find a way to occupy the groups time, thus cutting down on the time the group has to research and think about the authorities decisions. This is often done by demanding large amounts of time a week where the group meets together, and in some cults through proselytizing. Encouraging the group to spend its free time recruiting others.[/size]
[size=+1] Religious Cults also exert control on their groups by discouraging, or in some extreme cases, out right banning members from reading publications or books that offer an alternative view, which is deemed destructive or malicious by the cult. Rest assured that any organization on earth that pursues such a policy must have much to hide. Just as any Martial Arts Instructor who pursues such a policy is demonstrating his own insecurity.[/size]
[size=+1] Any group or individual that is offering only the truth will NEVER discourage adherents from reading critical literature. Truth will always shine out, and there is no need for book banning when you speak and preach only truth![/size]

[size=+1] The most effective ways to exert control over an individual life is through associations (whom the group is allowed form relationships with). Occupying the groups personal time, and sex. This is why you will find a heavy emphasis placed on the personal life of cult members. . who they are with, when they are with them, and who they sleep with. This is the sign of a clear cut religious cult.[/size]

[size=+1]Why do people create/ need cults?[/size]

[size=+1] That’s a good question. The only possible answer I can think of is that people find security in a cult environment. There is comfort in submitting to an authority that claims to receive its knowledge and legitimacy from a “higher source”. There is comfort in the group that uses an us vs them paradigm, and enforces its dogma with terminology. There is comfort in dogma itself, and there is great comfort in ritual. In things familiar.[/size]

[size=+1] “So we acquire a sense of self worth either by realizing our talents, or by keeping busy or by identifying ourselves with something apart from us – be it a cause, a leader, a group, possessions or whatnot. The path to self realization is the most difficult.”[/size]

[size=+1] “Similarly, we have more faith in what we imitate than in what we originate. We cannot derive an absolute certitude from anything which has its roots in us. The most poignant sense of insecurity comes from standing alone and we are not alone when we imitate. It is thus with most of us; we are what other people say we are. We know ourselves chiefly by hearsay.”[/size]

[size=+1] - Bruce Lee[/size]​

[size=+1] Truer words are seldom spoken. It is that path of self realization that Bruce spoke of that we need to encourage others and ourselves to pursue. We do not want to become one of the countless numbers of people who derive their sense of self worth from belonging, or following, a leader, cause, or cult.[/size]

[size=+1]How then do we create an organization without creating a cult?[/size]

[size=+1] By following the fourth principle of the Gym. Not setting yourself up as an authority figure. Not encouraging others to use cult like language, titles, or and us vs them attitude. And finally, by not creating any ritual.[/size]
[size=+1] People must be allowed to think for themselves. Indeed they should be encouraged to exercise and develop critical thinking. Questioning authority every single step of the way. And constantly demanding that anybody, or anything that sets itself up as an authority justify its own existence.[/size]

[size=+1]One thing is absolutely certain;[/size]





[size=+1]More harm, violence, death and destruction, has been done in the name of “Just obeying authority”, then has been, or ever will be done in the name of rebellion![/size]

[size=+1]Suggested reading:[/size][size=+1]“Why people believe weird things” psuedoscience, superstition and other confusion [/size][size=+1]By Michael Shermer[/size][size=+1]“Faces of the enemy” [/size][size=+1]By Sam Keen[/size][size=+1]“The awakening of intelligence” [/size][size=+1]By Krishnamurti[/size][size=+1]“The first dissident” [/size][size=+1]By William Safire[/size][size=+1]“Manufacturing Consent” Noam Chomsky on media [/size][size=+1]By Mark Archbar[/size][size=+1]“The Power of Myth” [/size][size=+1]By Joseph Campbell[/size][size=+1]“The Fountinhead” [/size][size=+1]By Ayn Rand[/size][size=+1]“Religions, Values, and peak-experiences” [/size][size=+1]By A.H. Maslow[/size][size=+1]“The Ideals of Theodore Roosevelt” [/size][size=+1]By Edward Cotton[/size][size=+1]“The Prince” [/size][size=+1]By Machiavelli[/size][size=+1]“Man and his symbols” [/size][size=+1]By Carl Jung[/size][size=+1]“Modern Mysticism” [/size][size=+1]By Michael Gellert[/size][size=+1]“Being there” [/size][size=+1]By Jerzy Kosinski[/size][size=+1]“The Aryan Christ” bio of C.G. Jung [/size][size=+1]By Richard Noll[/size][size=+1]“The Hero with a thousand faces” [/size][size=+1]By Joseph Campbell[/size][size=+1]“Mankind and his search for meaning” [/size][size=+1]By Viktor Frankl[/size]

[size=+1]Krishnamurti: “Suppose, if there were no book, no guru, no teacher, what would you do? What would you do? No drugs, no tranquilizers, no organized religions, what would you do?[/size]
[size=+1]Questioner: “I can’t imagine what I would do.”. . . . . . . . . . . . . .Perhaps there would be a moment of urgency there.”[/size]
[size=+1]Krishnamurti: “That’s it. We haven’t the urgency because we say, “well somebody is going to help me.”[/size]
[size=+1]Questioner: “But most people would be driven insane by that situation.”[/size]
[size=+1]Krishnamurti: “I am not so sure sir.”[/size]

[size=+1]On August 3rd, 1929 Krishnamaurti spoke to a crowd of thousands at a camp in Ommen. The crowd had gathered to hear the man that had been proclaimed a “Messiah” as a child, a “Savior”. Needless to say they where shocked and surprised by the speech that Krishnamurti gave, and the truth that he revealed. Here is a transcript of that famous 1929 speech.[/size]

We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many people will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain.

You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend asked the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of the truth,” said the devil. “That is very bad business for you, then” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to help him organize it.”

I maintain that truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, un approachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountintop to the valley. If you would attain to the mountaintop, you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices. You must climb towards the truth, it cannot be “stepped down” or organized for you. Interest in ideas is mainly sustained by organizations, but organizations only awaken interest from without. Interest, which is born out of love of truth for its own sake, but aroused by an organization, is of no value. The organization becomes a framework into which its members can conveniently fit. They no longer strive after the truth or the mountaintop, but rather carve for themselves a convenient niche in which they put themselves, or let the organization place them, and consider that the organization will thereby lead them truth. . . . .I maintain that no organization can lead man to spirituality.

If an organization is to be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery, for himself of the absolute, unconditioned truth. So that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the head of the order, to dissolve it. No one has persuaded me to this decision.

This is no magnificent dead, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow the truth. I am not concerned with whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from his cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories or philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this; not because I desire a following, not because I desire I desire a special group of disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellowmen, however ridicules, absurd, and trivial the distinctions may be! I do not want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth or in the realm of spirituality.

. . . . . . . .If there are only five people who listen, who will live, who will face their faces towards uncertainty, it will be sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want new, but would rather translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves? If I speak strongly, please do not misunderstand me, it is not through lack of compassion. If you go to the surgeon for an operation, is it kindness on his part to operate even if it causes you pain? So, in a like manner, if I speak straightly, it is not through lack of real affection – on the contrary.

. . . For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the world teacher. For eighteen years you have organized, you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you a new encouragement, who would set you free – and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way belief has made you different – not with the superficial difference of the wearing of the badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such belief swept away all the essential things of life? That is the only way to judge ; in what way are you free, greater, more dangerous to every society which is based on the false and unessential? In what way have the members of this organization of the Star become different?

. . . You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else; and although you have been preparing for me eighteen years, when I say these things are unnecessary, when I say that you must put them all away and look within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few.

So why have an organization?

. . . .I said last year that I would compromise. Very few listened to me then. This year I have made it absolutely clear. I do not know how many thousands throughout the world – members of the Order – have been preparing for me for eighteen years, and yet now they are not willing to listen unconditionally, wholly, to what I say.

So why have an organization?

. . . .You will see how absurd is the whole structure that you have built, looking for external help, depending on others for your comfort, for your happiness, for your strength. These can only be found within yourselves.

So why have an organization?

You are accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible? You are not serious in these things.

So why have an organization?

But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without beginning, and without end, will walk together with great intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unreality’s, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become a flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that real understanding their will be friendship. Because of that true friendship – which you do not seem to know – there will be real cooperation on the part of each one. And this is not because of authority, not because of salvation, not because of immolation for a cause, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing then all pleasure, than all sacrifice.

So these are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I have not been persuaded to it by anyone. I am not persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about it, this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have decided to disband the Order, as I happen to be its head. You can form other organizations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for the cages. My only concern is to set men free absolutely, unconditionally free. Krishnamurti August 3. 1929



[size=+1]“Look haven’t I made this abundantly clear. Don’t follow anyone else, and don’t become a Guro yourself.”[/size]

[size=+1]“The moment you follow somebody you no longer pursue truth”[/size]

[size=+1]“The moment you reject experience, and instead seek the mysterious, then you are caught”.[/size] [size=+1] [/size]- Krishnamurti

 

[shesulsa]

A most excellent post, Mr. Lopez. Thank you, Sir.

 

[HRD MA]

Good morning all. Enjoyed the sparring match and I think valid points were made by all. I believe only time will tell.

 

[C. G. Lopez]

If you like the cult post, check out Matt Thornton and the guy's from the straight blast gym. Matt put this together out of disgust for the direction of the martial arts today.

Stop by any descent BJJ School or good kickboxing gym and you will see great martial artists training with more intensity and dedication then at 99% of the Dojangs around the world. You will see great schools without students worshiping a figurehead or creating some crazy story about some mythological history.

I know this is a little off the topic of the original post. But hey, I love sub plots.

I don’t post this as an insult to the Moo Sul Arts, only to point out that you can have great teachers and students without all the silliness.

-Lopez



I'll try and keep to the topic of the main post.

 

[HRD MA]

Yes, I think there are "Americanized" Do Jangs all over the place. I think we have to remember that Ken was trained and learned his great technique under the other method of instruction. In all likelihood it was not a figure head or "silliness" that turned people away, but probably a financial squabble.

 

[Bob D.]

Actually Patrick you haven't been around it long enough to know what's going on. Let's talk again about this after you've gone to HQ and taken your BB test.
I've been studying HRD for 20 of the last 25 years. I've seen what a lot of my seniors have gone through. Two years and a green belt (which is what time it should take btw) under one instructor does not give you the right or knowledge to judge anyone or anything involved.
I'd be happy to discuss anything else MA related as you seem to have been in the arts in general for some time.
Regards, Bob

 

[shesulsa]

Yes, I think there are "Americanized" Do Jangs all over the place. I think we have to remember that Ken was trained and learned his great technique under the other method of instruction.

What other method of instruction are you referring to?

 

[spoynter]

Shesulsa,
In reply to your original question:
I, fortunately, have been a student of KJN Corona for the past 5 years. Not only is he a wonderful Martial Artist and Teacher, he is a friend that
genuinely cares about his students and community. His instructors also follow his lead in this area.

Patrick, with all due respect, speculating on issues you know nothing about "(In all likelihood it was not a figure head or "silliness" that turned people away, but probably a financial squabble.)" is as silly as going full contact with a Black Belt on your first day of instruction. I only bring this up because you keep making uneducated statements. Please do not take offense, that was not my intention.

Steve

 

[TomakaStud]

It's ok to say something that people will take offense too, in fact i probably am about to do it right now. Patrick, you have brass balls to be talking down anyone you have not peronally met #1, #2 to sugest (twice) that it had something to do with $$$ without and proof whatsoever show's a complete lack of integrity and fortitude, and frankly cowardness to say such a thing hiding behind a screne with little more proof that a rumor or assumption. I can't even presume to suggest that anyone would accuse another person of leaving a friendship that was like brotherhood and sincere admiration for something as selfish as a few $$$. Wherever you are getting your information from, perhaps KJN Elliot, who i trained under as did my father when i was a child and spoke with him at the new dojang only two months ago, you should seriously consider checking the other side of the story as there are always two!

On that note, i have complete respect and admiration for KJN Elliot. He was my instructor as a child and i will always treat him with honor until the day he gives me reason not to (i don't presume that would ever happen).

As Bob stated, stay away from subjects and issues you have no idea about and can only speculate on, keeps you from looking like the dumb a-- you are!

 

[Bob D.]

Easy guys! Lets just agree amongst ourselves that this subject is taboo. I think I said enough about it earlier...lets not take it further.
Farang, Bob

 

[shesulsa]

I really don't appreciate hearing negative things about Master Corona - especially from people who have never met the man and who seem to think they come from some place of authority because they hold a membership to an organization. I think you'll find, Patrick, that those who have met him / know him contain immense respect for the man.

 

[Bob D.]

I don't think Patrick was being disrespectful...just mislead by someone. Bob

 

[TomakaStud]

Easy guys! Lets just agree amongst ourselves that this subject is taboo. I think I said enough about it earlier...lets not take it further.
Farang, Bob

Agreed, i only posted because i've been reading this for some time and some things said obviously hit a nerve and weren't being dropped. Just as i have no business or place to speculate or state my opinion having not been there at that time. (even though i have talked with both parties and heard both sides of the story and have made my decision based on that). Very few people like yourself who were there have an opinion that matters and can make statements with conviction.

Like i said before if you have speculation you should go to the source for your answer, if you doubt someones skill or teachings you should ask for comparisson or go see for yourself.

End of discussion for me unless i get brought into it again.

Farang, Tom

 

[shesulsa]

I would ask to have the thread locked since it really didn't go where I hoped it would go - however, there are also some really nice posts here too.

Glad to meet you Tom, Steve and Adam. Always good to hear from you, SBN Donnelly and KSN Lopez.

Farang,

GK

 

[spoynter]

It is nice to meet you also. I for one am glad you opened this discussion. It has given some of us the opportunity to celebrate a great man and teacher. Did you come down to the Tempe school a few years ago for the testing? If so, I'm sure we met then.

 

[shesulsa]

Yes, as a matter of fact. I tested for red (boy did I screw up my form!!) and another Washington student tested for half-black. Could you please give me a clue as to your identity or PM me, sir?

And yes, I always look forward to visits from and with KJN - he's awesome.

 

[TomakaStud]

Any of you Washington people coming down for Sulsa camp this year?

 

[shesulsa]

Not sure - what are the dates?

 

[Kuk Sa Nim]

Very interesting discussion, but unfortunately, you are all starting to "beat an old horse to death". The subject of WHRDA, and (very good) black belts leaving is not taboo, except for those with little actual knowledge or with something to hide or who want to spread (un-true) rumors. As Bob D. said, for those of us that were there, we and only we know the full details of our relationships and ultimate departure from WHRDA. It is in fact very personal, and for most, painful. But it is still our own business.
As for the original topic of this discussion, I DO know Master Corona personally. We are "brothers" and I can say that there are few martial artists as talented and genuinely humble as him. He is a true gentleman and an example to us all.

Farang!

GM De Alba