Karate ni sente nashi

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No first strike in Karate. Chinese Proverb "He who strikes the first blow admits he's lost the argument."
Any thoughts on this subject, how do you feel about the above statement?
I teach GoJu and every Kata in GoJu Ryu karate begins with a defensive technique.
 

twendkata71

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It was one of Funakoshi Gichin's favorite sayings. Meant to teach his students that karate is for self defense not for attacking others in anger.
It is the first thing that I teach new students.
 

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The same concept is taught in Okinawan karate...BUT, it depends on what you mean by "first attack." If someone is obviously threatening you, or if you detect a hostile intent, then that in itself may be considered a first attack and it is perfectly acceptable to "seize the initiative early," or take the initiative away from the opponent. It is stupid to wait for an obviously hostile and threatening opponent to strike first.

There is more subtlety to this than just "being defensive." In nature, the more aggressive animal usually wins. There are ways to be aggressive without "attacking" first.
 

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I was just speaking to a Hanshi level instructor about this. He gave me some different insights on it.
The saying could also be translated "There is no first advantage in karate." There's a lot more room for interpretation with that translation. The way this particular instructor looks at it is through the idea that aggressive defense is the key to shotokan karate. Therefore the first movement of your opposition (what your opponent sees as his advantage) is actually to your advantage with your devistating uke waza.
 

chinto

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It was one of Funakoshi Gichin's favorite sayings. Meant to teach his students that karate is for self defense not for attacking others in anger.
It is the first thing that I teach new students.


I would agree with this interpitiation. I beleave the idea was that Karate is for self defence only. now if you got several people threatinging you and you are sure its going to be physical and not just words, well then you have been "attacked", even the law would say so, as assualt is any thing that makes you fear for your physical safety. so you would then be perfectly correct, if you are 110% sure your right, to pick one of the groop and dispatch him as fast as posible.
 
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I was just speaking to a Hanshi level instructor about this. He gave me some different insights on it.
The saying could also be translated "There is no first advantage in karate." There's a lot more room for interpretation with that translation. The way this particular instructor looks at it is through the idea that aggressive defense is the key to shotokan karate. Therefore the first movement of your opposition (what your opponent sees as his advantage) is actually to your advantage with your devistating uke waza.

The above is so true, as it shows through all GoJu kata. I feel that by letting someone attack first this does not put you at a disadvantage but allows you to read his intentions. When we are young we like to meet aggression head on and if we spar a lot in the begining of our training at certain dojo’s it is drilled into our heads to attack first. But as we look at the kata closely this is not what the kata are teaching us.
 

twendkata71

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I agree. You have to seize the opportunity as soon as it becomes apparent that the situation is going to escalate and there are no other avenue or dialog.




I would agree with this interpitiation. I beleave the idea was that Karate is for self defence only. now if you got several people threatinging you and you are sure its going to be physical and not just words, well then you have been "attacked", even the law would say so, as assualt is any thing that makes you fear for your physical safety. so you would then be perfectly correct, if you are 110% sure your right, to pick one of the groop and dispatch him as fast as posible.
 
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I agree. You have to seize the opportunity as soon as it becomes apparent that the situation is going to escalate and there are no other avenue or dialog.

From the small group of people that have responded to this thread, I feel that you have elevated your skill level beyond a sucker punch response to a situation. The kata make it very clear that there has to be some form of movement from the other person before we respond. Within the GoJu kata we block or parry at the same time moving “Tai Sabaki” and at the same time striking. You can not punch or kick or takedown an individual based on a verbal confrontation. It is against the law to attack someone on speculation. There has to be some movement toward you, a step, a grab or the drawing back of a hand. At some point in time if we feel threatened and feel we have to hit first really takes the art aspect out of it all, and you can be sued or you may go to jail. I know there has to be more to this “no first strike in karate” then we have touched upon so far. Boomer said it best “
The way this particular instructor looks at it is through the idea that aggressive defense is the key to shotokan karate. Therefore the first movement of your opposition (what your opponent sees as his advantage) is actually to your advantage with your devistating uke waza”. I know the saying is, it is better to be judged by 12 then carred out by 6 but if this is an art of self defense then where is the art. Maybe the sport people are right, kata is useless. Any thoughts? :)
 

chinto

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From the small group of people that have responded to this thread, I feel that you have elevated your skill level beyond a sucker punch response to a situation. The kata make it very clear that there has to be some form of movement from the other person before we respond. Within the GoJu kata we block or parry at the same time moving “Tai Sabaki” and at the same time striking. You can not punch or kick or takedown an individual based on a verbal confrontation. It is against the law to attack someone on speculation. There has to be some movement toward you, a step, a grab or the drawing back of a hand. At some point in time if we feel threatened and feel we have to hit first really takes the art aspect out of it all, and you can be sued or you may go to jail. I know there has to be more to this “no first strike in karate” then we have touched upon so far. Boomer said it best “The way this particular instructor looks at it is through the idea that aggressive defense is the key to shotokan karate. Therefore the first movement of your opposition (what your opponent sees as his advantage) is actually to your advantage with your devistating uke waza”. I know the saying is, it is better to be judged by 12 then carred out by 6 but if this is an art of self defense then where is the art. Maybe the sport people are right, kata is useless. Any thoughts? :)


yes, if you have multiple attackers who have made it clear to a reasonable person that they intend to do you bodily harm, that is all western states at least is considerd assualt and you are leagaly able to respond. ( newjersy and a few east coast states have insane "duty to retreat" laws that forbid any self defence if you can retreat at all.. and they are taken to rediculous levels i understand.) but to say you have to wait till they have actualy struck you is to some how say there is a suicide pact in the laws and in the art. if that person has a weapon you provably dont want to wait till he uses it on you before you take action.
 

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We always followed the Kenpo motto: He who hesitates-meditates, in a horizontal position. The first "strike" was already initiated at the moment your attacker became hostile. That could be a loud voice, an oncoming blow, an aggressive movement toward you etc.. Anything you do is a response, or the 2nd action taken.
 
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yes, if you have multiple attackers who have made it clear to a reasonable person that they intend to do you bodily harm, that is all western states at least is considerd assualt and you are leagaly able to respond. ( newjersy and a few east coast states have insane "duty to retreat" laws that forbid any self defence if you can retreat at all.. and they are taken to rediculous levels i understand.) but to say you have to wait till they have actualy struck you is to some how say there is a suicide pact in the laws and in the art. if that person has a weapon you provably dont want to wait till he uses it on you before you take action.
Agreed, I live in NY state and the laws here are some of the most stringent. I think Karate ni sente nashi has some very broad meaning which is as much mental as physical. Some things that were said, practiced and excepted in days of old would not fly in modern times. There are many ways to look at things and this is what makes for good posting :). There was a quote I heard long ago that I feel is very applicable to my martial arts as I have gotten older. “The best block is to not be there”. I think it is a perception of ability that we are looking at here. I would never advocate standing in one place while being used as a “punching bag”, or worst. Also I would not advocate moving in on someone to try and beat them to a perceived attack. I think in broad day light on a busy street if I happen to bump into someone by mistake and they get angry my perception as to what to do would be much different then that same street at 2 am in the morning. This is where the mental and physical aspect of No first strike in karate comes into play. Day light if I call them a jerk I have moved past humility and in affect, thrown the first shot. 2 am in the morning on the same street someone approaching I would give them the benefit of the doubt and cross the street. If they followed then in my mind that is there first strike and as the opportunity arises I will do my best to destroy them. In our art there is a fine line between action and reaction and it is up to us technicians to decide. Karate ni sente nashi are words, kata is the book that these words take form in.
 
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We always followed the Kenpo motto: He who hesitates-meditates, in a horizontal position. The first "strike" was already initiated at the moment your attacker became hostile. That could be a loud voice, an oncoming blow, an aggressive movement toward you etc.. Anything you do is a response, or the 2nd action taken.
Agreed, no where in kata or drills are hesitations taught. Just free flowing techniques.
Agreed, no where in kata or drills are hesitations taught. Just free flowing techniques.
 
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Thanks for the input fellow martial talkers, it made for good discussion.
 

chinto

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Agreed, I live in NY state and the laws here are some of the most stringent. I think Karate ni sente nashi has some very broad meaning which is as much mental as physical. Some things that were said, practiced and excepted in days of old would not fly in modern times. There are many ways to look at things and this is what makes for good posting :). There was a quote I heard long ago that I feel is very applicable to my martial arts as I have gotten older. “The best block is to not be there”. I think it is a perception of ability that we are looking at here. I would never advocate standing in one place while being used as a “punching bag”, or worst. Also I would not advocate moving in on someone to try and beat them to a perceived attack. I think in broad day light on a busy street if I happen to bump into someone by mistake and they get angry my perception as to what to do would be much different then that same street at 2 am in the morning. This is where the mental and physical aspect of No first strike in karate comes into play. Day light if I call them a jerk I have moved past humility and in affect, thrown the first shot. 2 am in the morning on the same street someone approaching I would give them the benefit of the doubt and cross the street. If they followed then in my mind that is there first strike and as the opportunity arises I will do my best to destroy them. In our art there is a fine line between action and reaction and it is up to us technicians to decide. Karate ni sente nashi are words, kata is the book that these words take form in.


absolutly, the best block is not only not to be there for the blow, but not to be there for the fight! but if you can not some how manage that, then well once you are convinced, and are sure a reasonable man would be convinced his safety is in jeperdy you do what you can to not get hurt. if i can avoid it I will as fast as I can. but if i can not avoid it I will do what I must to survive.
 

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The quote makes me think about the game Go (if you have not heard of it, it is an East Asian board game that has its Western analogue in chess, although there is really not much comparison between the two. More info at the Go entry in Wikipedia). I was just playing it today, so it is on my mind... I find it much easier to play when I am defending, and can form a response to an attack rather than make the first play. Although it is fun and useful to be aggressive as well (in Go, at least!)...

Anyways, I'm completely off-topic, so I'll go make a new thread about Go!
 

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I believe this is true in terms of the thought Karateka should have. Modern Karate practitioners view Karate as a sport and many do not understand the morality that goes into the art.

In terms of technique, I would agree with the above statements of being aggressive. Stepping back when defending yourself, in my experience only lets your opponent to have more oppertunities to attack you. As my teachers have taught me, you only have a few seconds to end an encounter, but must do it as peacefully as possible avoiding maming and killing techniques.

Speaking of tranlations, this makes me think of a book I read where instead of translating Karate as 'empty hand' it was better translated as 'open hand' meaning the hands could be helping. Just an idea.
 

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RIGHT BEHIND YOU!!!
When we are young we like to meet aggression head on and if we spar a lot in the begining of our training at certain dojo’s it is drilled into our heads to attack first. But as we look at the kata closely this is not what the kata are teaching us.
This, I fear, is a product of the 'sport karate/taekwondo' era. You are taught to get that point - always attack. The kata/poomse/forms aspect of training is largely disregarded in that arena. In my past TKD training, when I inquired about a particular move in one of my forms and whether it was offensive, defensive or both, I was actually told my my instructor that (after a deer in headlights kind of look) "you won't ever use that move in a tournament so don't worry about it." That's not to say all sport schools/styles are bad, but you get my point.
 

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