just a couple of forms

[lonecoyote]

I've been reading Kit's book on Shaolin and it seems like he's saying that at various times different people would take one or two forms, and practice them for years, picking out the techniques, and would then use the techniques as their martial art, like one would practice northern hongxiaquan from the hong fist sets in shaolin. That really appeals to someone who has done different arts for different lengths of time and ended up with a contradictory mess. any one study like this anymore, or did they ever?

 

[7starmantis]

First, who is Kit? And what book are we talking about?

What people are we talking about who used to take these one or two forms and use them as "their" martial arts? I guess you mena taking one or two forms form an allready established system and use those couple of forms as another system altogether?

No insult intended, just trying to figure out what exactly your asking.

7sm

 

[lonecoyote]

wong kiew kits book on shaolin. Now, I could have gotten the wrong impression, as far as taking forms from already established systems, perhaps, say Hong fist was not a subset of shaolin as one might say it is now but a set apart system of its own, which became a part of shaolin later. Little complicated I guess and I'm not doing a very good job of communicating it, but what I'm getting at is the idea, not just in chinese martial arts, but in some others too, that martial artists of the past, practiced fewer forms, and also fewer techniques, and I'm not sure that's a bad thing, work on perfecting just a little as opposed to being so-so at a lot of different stuff. I could certainly be completely wrong. If so, please tell me

 

[RHD]

wong kiew kits book on shaolin. Now, I could have gotten the wrong impression, as far as taking forms from already established systems, perhaps, say Hong fist was not a subset of shaolin as one might say it is now but a set apart system of its own, which became a part of shaolin later. Little complicated I guess and I'm not doing a very good job of communicating it, but what I'm getting at is the idea, not just in chinese martial arts, but in some others too, that martial artists of the past, practiced fewer forms, and also fewer techniques, and I'm not sure that's a bad thing, work on perfecting just a little as opposed to being so-so at a lot of different stuff. I could certainly be completely wrong. If so, please tell me

I understand and agree with this methodolgy to some extent.
I've gone from a base of around 30+ forms (Hung Gar system plus others) to only practicing 3. These three forms are of a set of forms (4 or 5) considered by most practitioners of Hung Gar to be the "piller forms" or foundational sets. Of the three I practice, two of them could comprise an entire fighting style on thier own though they make use of the same principles and basics. The third is for power generation and body development. Beyond these three forms, taking into consideration the limitations of time, career, family, etc....I would find it difficult to achieve the level of skill that I aspire to. Also, for purposes of instruction, These three give me several years worth of material to teach, break apart and study. Each form is like an onion: many layers beneath the surface and each time you peel one away there is a new one to be found underneath it. Also, forms training in a literal sense is not the main focus of my training. I prefer partnered and even solo drills to forms practice...only about 30% of my training time is spent doing forms.

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

RHD: I can agree with that, practicing fewer forms will allow you the time to reach a certain skill level in those forms. Lets not forget that is basically the premise of wing chun. Mantis has many forms, and sometimes I long for the ability to really "dissect" a form and get to the bottom of it. I guess that is why I advance rather slowly through the forms.

lonecoyote: I'm not as familiar with shaolin history as some, I'll be the first to tell you that. I'm most definitely telling you your wrong. I don't know if I believe that in the past they practiced fewer forms or fewer techniques but maybe practiced more on the techniques they did know. Of course we do have "newer" people such as Lee Kam Wing who developed some of their own forms, but as I understood it, they aren't new forms, but rather small changes of older forms, or focusing more on certain techniques than others. It certainly could be that in the past they had fewer forms, but I also think they did alot more training than what we in 2004 have time to do. Its hard for me to grasp the "fewer forms is better" as mantis was designed to best shaolin and thus is extremely full and quite complex. I do go back and forth however as my training in JKD is more of this idea. Maybe there were fewer forms, maybe they did have to have more forms to help them understand the techniques held within their system.

ok, now I'm just rambling...

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

I must make a correction, please forgive my lack of proofreading! I meant to say, "I am most deffinitely NOT telling you your wrong. Instead I wrote something I didn't mean to. Sorry you guys, my mistake.

7sm

 

[lonecoyote]

thanks, 7sm, RHD, I appreciate your thought provoking replies. I find as I move along a checkered martial arts path, one school shutting down, a private instructor moving, moving myself, etc. I kind of long for a simple system that I can practice over and over, with a couple of forms and a coherent simple philosophy that is powerful and effective That's why the idea kind of caught fire with me. What would you do if someone came to you wanting private instruction and said "I would like to learn (name any two forms from your system) along with applications, and that's it"?

 

[vincehardy3]

Xingyiquan is classified as an internal system of kung-fu. The system has few forms, but is very powerful. Xingyiquan is translated as "Mind-Intent Boxing". Everything within the system is driven by the Mind/Intent...it is a good concept, and is very powerful/effective when put into use.

The system, dependent upon the school of study, is comprised of the following forms:

The WuXing--5 fists (5 short repetitive movements)
Lienhuan WuXing--5 fists linking form
One/two auxiliary forms and two man sets
10/12 animal linking form
Weapons sets

The Chinese would teach this system to their military troups because they could learn how to fight effectively in a short amount of time. I hope that this helps out.

Have a good one,


Vince Hardy

 

[RHD]

thanks, 7sm, RHD, I appreciate your thought provoking replies. I find as I move along a checkered martial arts path, one school shutting down, a private instructor moving, moving myself, etc. I kind of long for a simple system that I can practice over and over, with a couple of forms and a coherent simple philosophy that is powerful and effective That's why the idea kind of caught fire with me. What would you do if someone came to you wanting private instruction and said "I would like to learn (name any two forms from your system) along with applications, and that's it"?

I would say as long as you take the time to learn certain foundational elements first, and have the drive to train hard and train consistantly...You got an instructor.

Mike

 

[Matt Stone]

To add on to what Vince said (whassup!!!)...

Xingyi (as an example system) is low on content, but high on content... WTF?

When I was in Japan, learning to speak Japanese, my teacher told me that Japanese is "high context" while English is "low context."

In a similar vein, systems like Wing Chun, Xingyi, early Karate (all of which had/have only a very few forms) took what there was present in their system and milked it for its applications... Different angles of application, different planes of application, application of principles rather than techniques, etc. In this way, one or two forms could easily keep someone busy studying for a lifetime.

The "collecting" of forms that nearly all modern schools participate in is a hold over from when individual teachers would, having taught all they knew to their student, send them to learn from a friend or mutual acquaintence in order to learn something else to help them on the path. If Bob taught his student Sally katas 1, 2 and 3, and then sent her to learn from Sensei Tom down the road, who then taught her kata 4, Sally would, in all likelihood, teach her students katas 1 - 4. That is where the "kata collection" begins. It doesn't necessarily mean that Sally's training absolutely needed kata #4, but she kept it as it was useful to her. Her students learned 1 - 4, and maybe one or two of them went on to train elsewhere, learning katas 5 and 6. Et cetera.

One form could, reasonably, last an individual a decade and they'd never really have to look deeply into another one for that entire time. But find me someone who is going to do nothing by Naihanchi Shodan for 10 years... Not a common person, I'd bet.

 

[arnisador]

I think Mr. Stone is on track. There was a time when people kept what they new and added more that they learned elsewhere, or made up new forms themselves (e.g., Uechi-ryu).

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=516

 

[RHD]

To add on to what Vince said (whassup!!!)...

Xingyi (as an example system) is low on content, but high on content... WTF?

When I was in Japan, learning to speak Japanese, my teacher told me that Japanese is "high context" while English is "low context."

In a similar vein, systems like Wing Chun, Xingyi, early Karate (all of which had/have only a very few forms) took what there was present in their system and milked it for its applications... Different angles of application, different planes of application, application of principles rather than techniques, etc. In this way, one or two forms could easily keep someone busy studying for a lifetime.

The "collecting" of forms that nearly all modern schools participate in is a hold over from when individual teachers would, having taught all they knew to their student, send them to learn from a friend or mutual acquaintence in order to learn something else to help them on the path. If Bob taught his student Sally katas 1, 2 and 3, and then sent her to learn from Sensei Tom down the road, who then taught her kata 4, Sally would, in all likelihood, teach her students katas 1 - 4. That is where the "kata collection" begins. It doesn't necessarily mean that Sally's training absolutely needed kata #4, but she kept it as it was useful to her. Her students learned 1 - 4, and maybe one or two of them went on to train elsewhere, learning katas 5 and 6. Et cetera.

One form could, reasonably, last an individual a decade and they'd never really have to look deeply into another one for that entire time. But find me someone who is going to do nothing by Naihanchi Shodan for 10 years... Not a common person, I'd bet.

How unsual!!! There happens to be a "Sensei Tom" down the road from me who teaches Naihanchi Shodan! LOL! He's Damn good too!

Mike

 

[vincehardy3]

Lonecoyote,

I was unable to reply to your email (stupid email server), but I will post a reply here. If you are interested in knowing a little bit more about Xingyiquan I would suggest visiting the following site to order books: www.plumflower.com. Afterwards, click on the Xing Yi Quan button under "Products" near the bottom, and it will take you to the page where you can order reference materials. Also, you can visit the following website: http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html. This site has extensive information on Xingyiquan, plus it has links to other websites for the internal/external arts. I would suggest checking out the later link that I suggested before you purchase any materials. I wouldn't want you to waste your money on products that you might not hold an interest in later.

Have a good one,


Vince

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

First off excuse me because i didn't read every post before replying ,so i hope i don't repeat something that's already been said.

lonecoyote,

I have not read Wong Kiew Kits book ,but it is known fact that many masters and Grandmasters only mastered a few forms within their systems.

While they did know the entire system ,it was believed that two forms practiced and mastered was enough to last someone a life time. Now when i say mastered i don't mean just knowing a form i mean dissecting and working that form inside out ,and from every angle.

Most old school sifu will tell you that today ,my sifu tells me that all the time ,that i only need two forms. The thing is that almost noone trains how they are supposed to these days. I train harder and longer than most ,yet i'm still a joke compared to how my sifu trained back in Hong Kong.

My sifu does things that are truly amazing ,but that's what old school training will do for you. At 56yrs old 5'6" and 130lbs my sifu is the fastest,strongest,and most accurate person i've ever seen in my life. I played football with lineman that benchpressed over 500lbs ,and none were as strong or as powerful as he.

It's amazing what the body can do when it's trained properly.

Sorry to go off topic ,but as you can tell i enjoy speaking of my experiences in kung fu. I've been training in martial arts over 22yrs now 18 of them in kung fu ,so it's safe to say i've seen alot. My sifu shows me things constantly that just amaze me.

jeff