JuJitsu or NinJitsu?

[Mtal]

Hi all.

I was thinking of getting into either JuJitsu or Ninjitsu. Ok I have done Jujitus (for 6 months, then did some other arts with locking in them also). Pretty much each class, practice locks, do falls, etc..... Now I have not done Ninjitsu at all. Looking at Utube, the locks look pretty interesting. They seem to have a little different flavor than Jujitsu. Also some of them look a little akido'ish and then I also seen some good throws. Seems like a lot of interesting stuff in Ninjitsu.

Now the striking and stances in Ninjitsu, looks a lot different from the karate I did. Seems like they are either doing a long front stance to strike or a long back stance to avoid. To me it looks kind of hard to use on the street (but it does look different and I really like to surprise an attacker). I do like that they seem to hit pressure points (I seen them strike the attackers arm with a strike, etc....). Then is seems to take a beating on some of the message board that the style is not good for self defence and that there are a lot of bad teachers out there.

Well what you all think. What are the pro's and Con's of each art? Or are the locks pretty much the same, and it does not really matter? Is there anything in the training that sets them appart? Has anyone tried these arts and stopped because they did not feel they worked? Thanks, any advice would be great.

 

[mrhnau]

Hi all.
I was thinking of getting into either JuJitsu or Ninjitsu. Ok I have done Jujitus (for 6 months, then did some other arts with locking in them also). Pretty much each class, practice locks, do falls, etc..... Now I have not done Ninjitsu at all. Looking at Utube, the locks look pretty interesting. They seem to have a little different flavor than Jujitsu. Also some of them look a little akido'ish and then I also seen some good throws. Seems like a lot of interesting stuff in Ninjitsu.

Yeah, there is some good stuff in ninjutsu (notice the spelling, ninjitsu tends to be an americanized offspring).

Now the striking and stances in Ninjitsu, looks a lot different from the karate I did. Seems like they are either doing a long front stance to strike or a long back stance to avoid. To me it looks kind of hard to use on the street (but it does look different and I really like to surprise an attacker). I do like that they seem to hit pressure points (I seen them strike the attackers arm with a strike, etc....). Then is seems to take a beating on some of the message board that the style is not good for self defence and that there are a lot of bad teachers out there.

There is some pressure point striking as well as attacking joints/bones. You will find a wide variety of attacks/defenses in the X-kans (Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan). It's a fairly complete system

There are some bad teachers out there, but there are also some great teachers Just a matter of finding someone that is a pretty good instructor. Asking their qualifications and credentials is a good place to start. If you are looking for a good school, try using Google or winjutsu.com as a starting place. I've found this web site to be quite helpful also. It's entirely possible you can find someone that knows the instructor, or perhaps even find a student!

Regarding if its good for self-defense, I tend to think so. People are going to argue about that for almost every style out there. There are definite pros and cons for each style. Same goes for teachers. I know some bad ninjutsu teachers as well as bad TKD, Karate, etc..

Well what you all think. What are the pro's and Con's of each art? Or are the locks pretty much the same, and it does not really matter? Is there anything in the training that sets them appart? Has anyone tried these arts and stopped because they did not feel they worked? Thanks, any advice would be great.

Jujutsu (JJ) can be really good. What style? Brazilian JJ is very practicle, practicing with pretty much full resistence, which most people think is good for real application (I kind of agree with that). Japanese JJ, from my understanding, won't go full force. Ninjutsu does contain alot of JJ but also a wider variety of things. The Bujinkan, for instance, teaches 9 different schools, some of which are JJ. You will also get a broader introduction to weapons and weapon defense (at least from my exposure). You will get exposure to a few weapons/techniques in ninjutsu that you normally will not find anywhere else (shuku - claws, deceptive techniques, concealment depending on your school).

I think both styles have their merits. It is really going to depend on the instructor. I'd be happier studying under a good Brazillian JJ instructor than a very crappy Bujinkan instructor. My suggestion is to find some local schools that are interesting to you. Go visit, try out a class or two. One or two introductory classes are normally free. See how well each style fits you. Maybe you prefer one teaching style over the other... It's really going to depend on what you have available

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Definately look around and try out a few classes at local Training Halls! Good luck!

 

[Hawke]

This is from my very limited experience.

Bujinkan

Pros:
Learn to fight from all position (lying down, sitting, standing)
Weapons training (sword, staff, rope, stars)
Joint Locks and Manipulations
Throws
Pressure point strikes
Learn to break your fall
Improvisation (learn to think on your feet and use whatever is available)
$5 a class and no contracts

Cons:
Start as a green belt
Lots of membership fees
Manditory visits to Japan once a year to gain promotions after a certain belt level
No real resistance training
No real standard from one Training Hall to another one

Everyone I have met that practices Bujinkan has been kind and generous with their knowledge. I enjoy very much playing with them.

 

[jks9199]

Cons:
Start as a green belt
Lots of membership fees
Manditory visits to Japan once a year to gain promotions after a certain belt level
No real resistance training
No real standard from one Training Hall to another one

Everyone I have met that practices Bujinkan has been kind and generous with their knowledge. I enjoy very much playing with them.

Explain why starting at a green belt is a con. (Incidentally, I believe most BBT training halls start students at white belts; they may advance rapidly to green, but there is no other intermediate belt before black.)

Also, it's not at all uncommon in many styles to have to travel for advanced belt rankings. Very simply, the judging board or officials have the pull to have you come to them, instead of them coming to you.

As to no real resistance training -- most BBT practitioners I've spoken with seem to have very solid understanding of the progression of resistance in training. The first time you try something, you shouldn't be facing much resitance -- but as you practice and develop skill with the technique, your partner should be increasing the resistance and varying the way the technique starts.

 

[Hawke]

I was asked the Pros and Cons I gave them.

I can do a pro's and con's with other styles as well.

Starting a MA as a green belt to me is a con. Seems like an ego booster. I notice people get promoted quite frequently.

As with no intermediate belt level I see that in some Aikido Styles as well. Only two colors being white and black (some have blues and browns in between). Also in Aikido there is no or very little resistance at the beginning and resistance gets added as you progress. I am guessing that your Training Hall gives you resistance, which I believe is a good thing. The Training Hall I have been to I did not see any, but maybe they are being nice to me? Like most Aikido and Kung Fu San Soo, Bujinkan does not spar. They move with each other and take turns applying the technique.

I have talk with others that have left Bujinkan and some of the cons I mentioned were the reasons they left. I was under the impression that Jinenkan and Genbukan broke away from Bujinkan because of some of the differences in the Training Halls (this is the impression I got from x-Bujinkan students, so I may be wrong here).

For me traveling far away for a promotion is a con. Other styles have you travel as well (Ryu Te you have to travel to Mississippi or Missouri to test). Most common styles (main sections you find here in MT) you don't have to leave this country for a promotion.

I'll rather not hijack this thread (sorry to the OP). If you want to start this thread about the pros and cons of Bujinkan in the X-kan section I would be happy to oblige you there. This is not meant as a bashing of Bujinkan. In my original reply I also listed the Pros. Mtal can make a decision from his own research. I personally believe the instructor is more important than the style. Mtal might want to visit his local dojos, studios, and YMCAs, but in the end it is Mtal's choice. The Beginner's Section has a wonderful FAQ in regards to chooing a MA school.

I mentioned that I have a limited experience in this MA style. I have enjoyed the company of the people that practice this art and enjoy practicing with them when I get the chance.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

This is from my very limited experience.

Bujinkan

Pros:
Learn to fight from all position (lying down, sitting, standing)
Weapons training (sword, staff, rope, stars)
Joint Locks and Manipulations
Throws
Pressure point strikes
Learn to break your fall
Improvisation (learn to think on your feet and use whatever is available)
$5 a class and no contracts

Cons:
Start as a green belt
Lots of membership fees
Manditory visits to Japan once a year to gain promotions after a certain belt level
No real resistance training
No real standard from one Training Hall to another one

Everyone I have met that practices Bujinkan has been kind and generous with their knowledge. I enjoy very much playing with them.

Glad you enjoy your experiences Hawke.

To address some of your con's:

-Most of the Dojo's that I know start everyone at white belt.
-Yearly Bujinkan membership fee of $35 (not really all that much)
-After 5th Dan people are expected to go to Japan for further training however you do not need to for belt promotion other than 5th Dan. (though going to Japan can only help your training)
-Resistance training varies from Dojo to Dojo and yet some have quite a bit
-The true beauty of a lack of standard from Dojo to Dojo is the variety one encounters when training with other practitioner's. In many way's this is incredibly refreshing. (I enjoy every now and then running across some really old timers who are unknown and practicing)

Finally to look at one of your pro's

$5 a class and no contracts - this varies from Dojo to Dojo as well.

 

[Hawke]

Greetings Brian,

Thanks for the info.

Cheers.

 

[henryci]

So perhaps this question is answered elsewhere on this forum but I couldn't find it.

If Bujinkan does not use sparring as mentioned above, have any of the other X-kans incorporated it into their training?

Thanks,

-- Henry

 

[Mr. E]

Henry,
Look at what Brian wrote. Some Bujinkan dojos do practice resistance training. But when you say "Sparring" they hear "competition" and avoid that like an insurance salesman. All the Bujinkan guys I have come in contact with seem to avoid the idea of doing anything that would lead to someone "winning" under some sort of rules, but they seem open to things that test and put pressure on them by non- scripted sessions. And reading the boards here, it seems that some Bujinkan members do indeed do what you would call sparring.

As for the original questioner, what is in your area? There may be a great school of one, and a mediocre school of the other in your possible commute range. I would go with the better of the two, despite what they claim to teach.