Judo: Sport or martial art?

Lisa

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Patrick Skerry said:
The trouble is that more and more western sport regalia is being imposed upon judo to the point of distortion, judo is a martial art yet being treated as a sport. This is my point that the forced sportification of judo, might cause the end of judo. Judo might become something else.
still a bit confused...

If you believe that western sport regalia being imposed upon judo is distoring Judo and might cause the end of Judo, then why do you participate in what you claim will eventually ruin your martial art and make it a sport? Why have you not walked away from that type of competition instead of supporting it by participating?
 
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Patrick Skerry

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Nalia said:
still a bit confused...

If you believe that western sport regalia being imposed upon judo is distoring Judo and might cause the end of Judo, then why do you participate in what you claim will eventually ruin your martial art and make it a sport? Why have you not walked away from that type of competition instead of supporting it by participating?
Well for one thing it is hard to walk away from a single governing body in judo, the International Judo Federation. Not even the Japanese have done that, the Japanese just ignore it in Japan, but adhere to it only in international competition.

The IJF has a monopoly on international competition. A lot of people, not just myself, don't like it. But apparently I'm the first to bring up this subject on this forum, based on all the flamers, uneducated questions, and general ignorance of the IJF itself and its effect on judo.
 

bignick

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Patrick Skerry said:
But apparently I'm the first to bring up this subject on this forum, based on all the flamers, uneducated questions, and general ignorance of the IJF itself and its effect on judo.
no one is ignoring it's effect...but when you bring up inane facts like Kano was critical of Mifune's judo and repeatedly refuse to offer evidence of your claim...people tend to stop worrying about having an intelligent discussion...
 

Mekugi

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Bird's is still a dead link. As you are so chummy with the Kodokan, you should call and ask the AJJF ; 011-81-3-3818-4199, 16:00-20:00 Japan time.

Patrick Skerry said:
Hi Russ,

To help answer the question from post #139, why does the AJJF ignore its governing body, the IJF, by not using a blue gi or the 'Golden Score' in any AJJF sanctioned event in Japan?

Try this method: type in BIRD'S JUDO SHOP

then click on: VIDEO CD on your left,

then click on the video clips of an All Japan Judo Federation tournament, such as the 2004 All Japan Judo Championship, or the All Asia Championship, or the Kano Cup, or the Kodokan Red & White tournament, and try and find a blue gi.

http://www.birdsjudoshop.com/videocd_list_e.html again for your convenience.

No blue gi's anywhere in sight! The AJJF won't use them in total defiance of the IJF, can you provide an explanation?
 
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Patrick Skerry

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Mekugi said:
Bird's is still a dead link. As you are so chummy with the Kodokan, you should call and ask the AJJF ; 011-81-3-3818-4199, 16:00-20:00 Japan time.
I called them, they said I was right.
 

bignick

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well...that ends the discussion then...he says he called them...and they said he was right...

did you also happen to ask about Kano being critical of Mifune's judo
 

Andrew Green

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Consider this...

Kano WANTED Judo in the Olympics.

The Olympics is a INTERNATIONAL event, controlled by a INTERNATIONAL governing board.

So as long as Judo is in the olympics its highest level of competition is controlled by an international board. Kano knew this, and wanted this. At an international level competition has to become more user friendly to survive. Watching to people in white gi's roll around on a 13" tv makes it hard to tell who is who. Not to mention Black and white tv's...

Therefore to broadcast this they needed a way to make it easier to tell who is who. Simplest solution, different colour uniforms.

Japan is ONE culture with it's own set of cultural values, they like white, they can wear white.

Judo is not controlled by Japan, not anymore. It's gotten bigger, and outgrown Japan and is now controlled Internationally.

You seem to like this. Lot's of practitioners / copmpetitors world wide. Frequent competitions just about everywhere. Good technical standards - Look at other asian martial arts and the problems with rank / standards going on right now...

But you don't like the changes that had to be made to allow the sport / martial art to grow to that level.

Too bad.

If you don't like what Judo is, then don't do it. It got to where it is because of what Kano did to set it on its path. Now if you want to sit there and say he would be unhappy with how well and how fast his art spread because of some cosmetic changes then that is your right. But don't expect anyone to jump on your little bandwagon, because it is really kinda silly.
 

Mekugi

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BULLSH$#
It's five AM here at the time of this posting. It was about 3 am when I posted the phone number. Furthmore, RIGHT ABOUT WHAT?

You have now proven yourself a liar.
Thanks for playing.
Patrick Skerry said:
I called them, they said I was right.
 
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Patrick Skerry

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Andrew Green said:
Consider this...

Kano WANTED Judo in the Olympics.

The Olympics is a INTERNATIONAL event, controlled by a INTERNATIONAL governing board.

So as long as Judo is in the olympics its highest level of competition is controlled by an international board. Kano knew this, and wanted this. At an international level competition has to become more user friendly to survive. Watching to people in white gi's roll around on a 13" tv makes it hard to tell who is who. Not to mention Black and white tv's...

Therefore to broadcast this they needed a way to make it easier to tell who is who. Simplest solution, different colour uniforms.

Japan is ONE culture with it's own set of cultural values, they like white, they can wear white.

Judo is not controlled by Japan, not anymore. It's gotten bigger, and outgrown Japan and is now controlled Internationally.

You seem to like this. Lot's of practitioners / copmpetitors world wide. Frequent competitions just about everywhere. Good technical standards - Look at other asian martial arts and the problems with rank / standards going on right now...

But you don't like the changes that had to be made to allow the sport / martial art to grow to that level.

Too bad.

If you don't like what Judo is, then don't do it. It got to where it is because of what Kano did to set it on its path. Now if you want to sit there and say he would be unhappy with how well and how fast his art spread because of some cosmetic changes then that is your right. But don't expect anyone to jump on your little bandwagon, because it is really kinda silly.
Hi Andrew,

It is true that Kano wanted his judo in the Olympics, but since Japan was first included in the Olympic games in Stockholm in 1912, it is the Olympics that have changed, not judo. The Kodokan still maintains the integrity of judo.

But the Olympic committee is trying to change judo. And just because the Olympic committee has had some rocky roads to follow, doesn't mean it has to reduce judo to a sport in the process.

Yet the question follows, who controls judo if not Japan? The IJF gives out ranks, the IJF promoted Anton Geesink to 10th degree (judan), the IOC also influences judo, as does the USJF, the USJA, the USJI, the AJJF, JudoAmerica, and so on. If not Japan, then who controls judo?
 

Andrew Green

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No one controls Judo.

The olympic committee in a sense controls all of the sports which compete in the olympic games, Judo included. Outside of the games the smaller organizations do.

Yes, the Olympics have changed, so has EVERYTHING else, Judo included.

Perhaps you should stop trying to live in the past and enjoy Judo for what it is, not what you think it was or should be.
 

Mekugi

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Took me five minutes.
http://www.judo.on.ca/articles/bluejudogi.html

Which events will use the blue judogi?
When the introduction of the blue judogi is approved at the "97" Paris IJF Ordinary Congress, the IJF will require the use of the blue judogi at the following IJF events:
  • Senior World Championships
  • Junior World Championships,
  • World Cup by Team of Nations,
  • Olympic Games
However, Continental Unions and National Federations may decide for themselves whether they will use the blue judogi in their tournaments. The IJF does not have the intention or authority to force the organizers of Continental Union and National Federation events to use the blue judogi in their events.


As for the golden score, I do believe it holds the same.
 

Mekugi

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Interesting:

INTERNATIONAL JUDO FEDERATION
EXECUTIVE COMMTTEE MEETING

DAEGU, KOREA
GRAND HOTEL
APRIL 14th, 2003


Decision: Approved

6. 4 Scoreboards adaptation:

Explanation and presentation on screen regarding the design and functions of ‘the new scoreboard’ proposal agreed upon by the IJF Sports and Refereeing Commission members, AJJF and SEIKO Company was given to the IJF EC: big red dot above Koka, Yuko, Keikoku Hansoku Make, indicating penalties; name of winner’s country will flash. For the direct Hansoku Make, the referee will go to the table of the related competition area and inform the national Technical Officials; Golden Score will flash after 25 seconds and the letters “GS” will appear on the display-panel.


It's Monday over here, I'll ring them up and see what the have to say this evening around 16:30.
 
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Patrick Skerry

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Mekugi said:
Took me five minutes.
http://www.judo.on.ca/articles/bluejudogi.html

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As for the golden score, I do believe it holds the same.
After clicking on this website, make sure you scroll down and read: 'WHAT IS THE TRADITION OF JUDO' as the IJF explains why Japan does not recognize nor use the blue gi.

We already know that the blue gi is used in international judo events.
 
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Patrick Skerry

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Mekugi said:
Interesting:



It's Monday over here, I'll ring them up and see what the have to say this evening around 16:30.

Banal, it doesn't mention that the 'Golden Score' is being used at AJJF events in Japan, just that a score board was presented as a gift via the IJF.

Why did you even bother to show this?
 

Robert Carver

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Read it again Jack...

Explanation and presentation on screen regarding the design and functions of ‘the new scoreboard’ proposal agreed upon by the IJF Sports and Refereeing Commission members, AJJF and SEIKO Company ...

The new scoreboard proposal was agreed upon by the AJJF. So they must have had input into the scoring scheme being used.

BTW, why does the Kodokan's own website refer to Judo as a sport? http://www.kodokan.org/e_basic/history.html

Judo became an official event in the Olympic Games of 1964, backed by Judo fans and sport promoters all over the world. It is now a very popular sport almost anywhere in the world.
Disclaimer: I do not think that Judo is a sport. I think of Judo as a martial arts with a sporting component. As far as the blue judogi is concerned...who cares? What is important is what is in the heart of the Judoka and not the color of his dogi.
 
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Patrick Skerry

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Robert Carver said:
Read it again Jack...

Explanation and presentation on screen regarding the design and functions of ‘the new scoreboard’ proposal agreed upon by the IJF Sports and Refereeing Commission members, AJJF and SEIKO Company ...

The new scoreboard proposal was agreed upon by the AJJF. So they must have had input into the scoring scheme being used.

BTW, why does the Kodokan's own website refer to Judo as a sport? http://www.kodokan.org/e_basic/history.html


Disclaimer: I do not think that Judo is a sport. I think of Judo as a martial arts with a sporting component. As far as the blue judogi is concerned...who cares? What is important is what is in the heart of the Judoka and not the color of his dogi.
Wow, two Tony posts in a single weekend,
How's it going Tony?

Read that statement once again Tony, nowhere does it say the AJJF has accepted the 'Golden Score' in AJJF sanctioned judo tournaments in Japan!

Your supposition that the AJJF is accepting the Golden Score from that sentence is sheer speculation on your part.

The kodokan is very weak in its English, 'sport' has been mistranslated from Japanese to English.

Take a look at this kodokan website for 'any' indication of either a blue gi or 'Golden Score': http://www.kodokan.org/j_info/02kagami_j.html

Q.E.D.!!!

Thanks again Tony!
 

Robert Carver

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Patrick Skerry said:
Wow, two Tony posts in a single weekend,
How's it going Tony?

Read that statement once again Tony, nowhere does it say the AJJF has accepted the 'Golden Score' in AJJF sanctioned judo tournaments in Japan!

Your supposition that the AJJF is accepting the Golden Score from that sentence is sheer speculation on your part.

The kodokan is very weak in its English, 'sport' has been mistranslated from Japanese to English.

Take a look at this kodokan website for 'any' indication of either a blue gi or 'Golden Score': http://www.kodokan.org/j_info/02kagami_j.html

Q.E.D.!!!

Thanks again Tony!
I never said that the AJJF accepted the Golden Score based on that sentence or from any other source. Unlike you, I don't make wild-arsed speculation based on jibberish or hearsay. I stated that the AJJF must have had some input since they AGREED to the proposal for the design of the new scoreboard. If they were not in agreement with the scoring system used, to include the boogie-man "golden score", then why did they agree? Why couldn't they jump up in the soapbox with Patrick, Jack, Keelhaulhim, or Alice, and forcefully speak out on the evils of the "golden score". Please, whoever you really are, get a friggin life!

As far as your link... Wow, cool pictures. I see a shrine to Kano Sensei, two guys doing kata, randori practice, and a bunch of folks eating noodles. Your point behind this link was?
 
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Patrick Skerry

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[/QUOTE] As far as your link... Wow, cool pictures. I see a shrine to Kano Sensei, two guys doing kata, randori practice, and a bunch of folks eating noodles. Your point behind this link was?[/QUOTE]


No blue gi used in Japan despite the IJF. Something Mekugi and you are at a lost to explain.

Take it easy Tony.
 

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