JKD/Ground Tactics

  • Thread starter Troy Ostapiw/Canada
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Troy Ostapiw/Canada

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I am interested is Getting your veiws about JKD and the ground game.
Many individual in JKD study various ground fighting methods Bjj, Sambo, Dumog,
and CSW, just to name a few. In your experience, which arts do u fell blend best, with your style of JKD, and Why?????

In the early years Bruce Lee, also studied grappling, concepts from Judo, Ju-Jutsu and wrestling. Bruce extracted many concepts from these styles, and incorperated them into his own personal JKD.

How has the ground game changed over the last 30 years, since Bruce Lee's death????????

I look forward to your reply.................
 
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Gary Crawford

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The JKD ground game I have experience with is avoided at almost all costs,but when ya gotta go there,it's like bjj or wrestleing with a lot of punches,elbow and knee strikes,groin strikes and biting thrown in when ever possible.
 
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AnimEdge

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In the style of Ninjutsu we study we do a lot of ground fighting based techniqes becouse they say that the majority of fighting is done on the ground or near the ground like on knees and such i dont know how it is done in JKD but like i said in my style we have tech. we use to get out of certain grabs but when it comes down to it is a do whatever you can style to where you must hit grab and rip anything you can grab untill you can get into a known technique or into the situation where you can do a technique inorder to get out
 
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Troy Ostapiw/Canada

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That's very interesting. I studied Bujinkan Ninjutsu for 10 years, and found the grappling skills verry useful as I continued on my martial path.. We did alot of Henka (Variations) in ninjutsu. This concept of Playing with a concept, (exploring) realy allowed me to develop fluidity, and spontaneous movement. I found that JKD/FMA helped me to expand my understanding of body movement or Tai-Jitsu.

The JKD ground game is different depending on which instructor u train with, but I belive in the end it is all the same. I have studied Sambo and BJJ, and find both arts have much to offer my ground game. Expand, Grow,make the concept or kata work for you, as we all have importan insight to contribute.
Let's let Functionality lead the way.....not ego.
 

achilles

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There is not a great deal of ground fighting in Bruce Lee's JKD so I supplement it with CSW, some of the shoot wrestling elements I've learned as well as elementary Judo pinning and BJJ as a back-up. The JKD is primary because you want to avoid the ground if possible; however, if you must go to the ground I try to finish immediately with a choke/lock or maintain the top position as much as possible. On the ground we look to strike, escape or lock immediately, but if such a quick finish fails, the methodical more conservative BJJ model tends to be a good backup. When I grapple from a JKD perspective, I TRY to get to my feet if things aren't going my way in a few minutes. I personally don't teach biting due to blood born illness concerns, but I think it must be addressed if for nothing more than defense.
 
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Troy Ostapiw/Canada

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Well if we are speaking of JKD as an art,...(Which according to Bruce Lee, It is not).....Then my perspective is on Ground fighting, not ground grappling is.......

My Ground game is,..... dont't go there,... but if u end up there you gotta know how to fight. Reality is not on the mats with bare feet...it's in an alley, on the concrete and, with multiple attackers. I tend to focus on the ground game as worse case senario. I look at Counter-grappling, impaling tactics, and balance displacement, and on the ground I don't hold back......I will take out ant eye, hit the groin....(Tug..Tug) just to get there mind right......On the ground I use eye gouging, and multiple striking, similar to the Rapid assault tactics, using palm strikes, elbows and knees. If you don't train these types of life saving concepts, somebody else will....... What if u go to the ground, and are dominating your Challenger on the ground.............the challenger is losing....challenger pulls a boot knife out, and stabs you in the femoral artery......now what????????......is all of that Sport fighting going to help????
(this is reality, take it from someone who fights for a living....and had to protect himself and others.... more than once)

You have to train what works in real life....Look at ground grappling, as Ground Fighting......if you don't train the tactics they will not be there when you need them. This is my take on JKD ground fighting, the art of winning....

Train hard...Fight easy.......
 

achilles

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Sport does have its place withing legitimate self defense. The conditioning and sound technique gained from sport training (i.e. sparring, wrestling, etc.) can be very beneficial since you are in fact learning to deal with a resisting opponent. However, sport training doesn't address everything, so it should be supplemented. A punch in the face is a punch in the face and a choke is a choke. The only difference is that there are more dimensions involved in self defense. The existance of the latter doesn't invalidate sport training, but necessitates a broader training regimine.
 

James Kovacich

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Troy Ostapiw/Canada said:
Well if we are speaking of JKD as an art,...(Which according to Bruce Lee, It is not).....Then my perspective is on Ground fighting, not ground grappling is.......

My Ground game is,..... dont't go there,... but if u end up there you gotta know how to fight. Reality is not on the mats with bare feet...it's in an alley, on the concrete and, with multiple attackers. I tend to focus on the ground game as worse case senario. I look at Counter-grappling, impaling tactics, and balance displacement, and on the ground I don't hold back......I will take out ant eye, hit the groin....(Tug..Tug) just to get there mind right......On the ground I use eye gouging, and multiple striking, similar to the Rapid assault tactics, using palm strikes, elbows and knees. If you don't train these types of life saving concepts, somebody else will....... What if u go to the ground, and are dominating your Challenger on the ground.............the challenger is losing....challenger pulls a boot knife out, and stabs you in the femoral artery......now what????????......is all of that Sport fighting going to help????
(this is reality, take it from someone who fights for a living....and had to protect himself and others.... more than once)

You have to train what works in real life....Look at ground grappling, as Ground Fighting......if you don't train the tactics they will not be there when you need them. This is my take on JKD ground fighting, the art of winning....

Train hard...Fight easy.......


Counter grappling is a good definition of how I teach in the low ranks. Basic positions and control. As a student gets better we do submission grappling. The reason is "nobody is unbeatable." So the best way to actually be able to get back to our feet is to learn to be a decent ground grappler. All the ground game that you described is even better when you have a good understanding of position and control (which you probably have just didn't see you mention it).

When we combine what we primarily practice with the "fact" that we are competent on the ground we have a sound game plan.
 
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Troy Ostapiw/Canada

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I do agree that there is a place for sport elements in self defence, but a person who has been in a real fight for their life knows the difference. How you train is how you will respond in the real world. For example in the early 80's police were trained to pick up their shell casings after shooting practice. The police would then place these casings into their pockets for easy clean up at the range, before reloading. Research later showed that officers that were shot and killed in the line of duty, were found to have casings in there pockets. The reason ? this was how they trained. The officers reacted to their training, and in doing so lost their life, because of poor training practices.


It is also the same for martial arts. Too much Ground Grappling/wrestling, without the concepts that even the playiong field (I.e rapid strikes, groing strikes, head stomps ect .) can give a person a false sense of security. The resault is in a real world situation is the Grappler forgets about the other dimensions of self defence. Combat is Ugly... If you don't train the actual skill....(I.e. eye gouge, rapid striking ect. ) ...you will only respond with wrestling. Someone who finds themself on the ground needs to think about survival, doing damage, and getting to their feet. Not putting on the ultimate arm bar. I am sure you are also aware of multiple attackers. Holding someone in a head lock while his friends kick you in the face is not a sound tactic for self preservation.

It's the mantality, mind set and tactics that enhance your survivability. The mind set a person learns through sport training/or just grappling can be very dangerous in a real world setting. Ever try to grapple on concrete or broken glass?????

Grappling in the training hall is great for cardio, and great for intermediate martial artists, who want to compete, and get over their first fight gitters. Others make a name in sport by competing. These are a good avenues to follow. In reality the mature martial artis understands the limits of sport, and the problems they will encouter if they don't concentrate on Reality based, real world problems they could face in Combat/Self-defence situations.

" If i were to be completely realistic in my films, you would call me a violent, bloody man. I would simply destroy my opponent by tearing his guts out.."
-Bruce Lee
(Bruce Lee, The celebration of life: By John Little:Turrtle publishing:Boston MA.)
 

achilles

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I understand that a purely sport mentality might lead to trouble in a real altercation involving harsh terrain, multiple attackers, etc. However, sparring is very important in Jeet Kune Do. It is perhaps the cornerstone of the training. All one needs to do is read Bruce Lee's notes to see the value Jeet Kune Do places on training against an uncooperative opponent in the training process. Considering how dangerous it is to grapple on concrete and broken glass, I think that mats and other safety gear is a good idea for safe and productive training. Why spend so much time training to protect your person only to be abused (not hard training but injury) in the gym? Just as Jeet Kune Do has employed safety equipment for years to engage in more realisitc standup sparring (boxing gloves, shin pads, helmets, etc.) I don't think it is illogical to employ similar precautions in training ground fighting. The experience gained training against an uncooperative training partner on the ground in a relatively safe environment is going to be very advantageous to the fighter who must use his skills in self defense. I think it is more productive to have trained against a resisting opponent and then add awareness of street conditions and tactics than to reject (safe and uncooperative) sport training and only have awareness of street tactics at the expense of being acclimated to ground fighting.
 

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Dont confuse sportive training methods with application of techniques in a self defense situation. I dont know of anyone with whom I have run across that is good at the ground game that doesnt acknowledge the fact of multiple opponents, glass etc. What is a better attitude to have; if I go to the ground I might get cut so I wont bother to train that or for better or worse some fights will always go to the ground, so I better be prepared to at least be able to get back up?
The problem I see with scenario training is that it is impossible to think up scenarios for every encounter, why not just train with a resisting partner in a sportive manner and you will find all the scenarios you would ever need.
I believe that a JKD person whatever that means should be able to play and be comfortable in all ranges, and by playing in a sportive manner every class is a laboratory.
Troy, you mentioned in your post about poor training practices, I couldnt agree more, but holes in one's training are only going to show up if the training is put to task, against someone who wont let you apply the training.
 

achilles

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Marvin,

I think you are agreeing with me that the confines of a more sportive mode of grappling training which can offer real resistance is better than simply avoiding that experience due to its limitations in so far as environmental hazards (e.g. broken glass) and inappropriate contexts (multiple opponents). To take things one step further, with the propper training equipment and some imagination you can interject some of the gritty reality of street fighting in a safe and productive way. I once participated in a women's self defense course as a "bad guy" with the task of trying to muscle women to the ground and hold them down. They were tasked with trying to grab my groin and to simulate poking my eyes (which could have been made more realistic with a pair of goggles). As the bad guy, I learned what it was like to have to try and grapple while keeping my goodies intact via monitoring my "victim's" hands. I think this kind of training should be implemented by anyone who is interested in self defense and grapples. With attention to safety and good attitudes, you can spar almost anything.
 
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Troy Ostapiw/Canada

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I never said that Grappling doesn't have it's place, grappling is apart of the martial arts in todays world.. My point was, not to overtrain the sport element of grappling, if you follow a reality based program. Just sport grappling can be a dangerous practice, if that is the only way you train your ground game. It is no different than a stand up sport martial artist, trying to control an insaine criminal who is about to stab you in the chest for your wallet. The sport player, may have developed good attributes i.e) flexibility balance control, but he is not prepared for the reality of combat. There is a diffrence between sport and reality based methods of training.

Sparring is very important within the arts, but so is the way u spar. Most fights I have seen in the streets start with a sucker punch, If you are always putting on gloves, shin guards, squaring off infront of your opponent in the gym, then you create a mental blue print in your mind. In essance your body is not prepared properly to defend against the sucker punch because you are use to a certain enviorment i.e) squaring off with gloves, in the safetey of the gym. Everyone has a plan until they get hit......I am not saying that sparing with protective equipment is not good. I use it in my training practices. It's a great tool to build attributes you need in combat.
what I am saying is sport grappling is only one dimenssion of proper training.

You have to take the best of ground grappling, then apply it with reality based methods. i.e.) fighting against a resisting opponent, building balance, control, sensitivity. Then integrate the concepts that are not apart of sport i.e. eye gouging, hair pulling ect. My point is to actually build muscle memory, of these concepts, so that in a real life setting, your body will simply react, without thought, when the sympathetic nervous system kicks in. It is the same for your stand up skill . Integrate the best of both worlds with a element of danger at each level. learn the various ranges of combat, and be able to flow seamlesley in and out of all ranges. Integrate the concepts that will even out the playing field. Of course there is always someone better. That is why we must apply unconventional tactics in combat. It is not enough to simply think about them, we must apply the tactic at the right opportunity. As Bruce Lee said, I do not hit, it hits all by it's self".

Danger can be controlled as stated before, with proper protection, and proper guidance. A person has to ask themselves why did they enter the martial arts?????Was it to be like Bruce Lee? was it to get fit? was it to compete? was it to put on a uniform and call themself a martial artis? Or was it to learn to defend themselves and their family from becoming victims....And then ask yourself how can I truley learn self protection skills that will work when the fight begins. A true martial artist in my opinion employs various approaches , and is not closed to one method. A true martial artist exposes themselves to multiple training methods and concepts.

I have trained many people who have been victims of violent assaults and rapes. Many who had prior martial arts experience. They have told me personnaly that their training did not prepare them for the violent encounter they faced. Many gave up on martial arts, until they found that we were approaching martial arts/self protection in a wholistic manner as such.

Gound grappling is a very useful tool to build attributes. Yes I agree a person needs to practice against resisting opponents, in all ranges, and this can be done in a safe manner with an element of realisme/danger. This will better prepare a person for conflict. We must not forget that the martial arts are first and foremost about self protection/Fighting. As Paul Vunak stated to me in California," First we train self-protection, How to fight and truley protect ourselves. Then we work on self-perfection". I am no longer a member of Paul Vunaks PFS, but those words have stuck with me since 1998.

We can argue about many things in the martial arts, style, concepts, training methods that work best. But when push comes to shove we need to properly prepare our selves. For many of us this is probably the very reason we follow the path of JKD. Many have studied arts that have little or no combative value, but JKD allows us to develop combative value that is unique to each of us. It is a personal art form, based on real experience and scientific investigation. These are simply my opinions, my experiences, that I have researched and documented over the last 20 years. It doesn't make me right.
it is simply my opinion.
 

achilles

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I agree with your point that a person schooled only in competition may lack essential elements such as awareness in a street senario. I know at least one martial artist who is a very tough competitor, but doesn't think about self-defense at all. I probably know several...

A real martial artsist, and JKD man, should be able to adapt and have a variety of training methods that develop this ability. We should be able to recognize a threat, how to de-escalate threats when possible and be able to survive violence in its many forms.


Seeing as you were at one time affiliated with PFS, I wonder if you ever trained with Dion Ricardo? I've only attended one of his seminars, but he is by far one of the most tactically realistic instructors I have ever met. His concepts on postures, boundary setting and phases of a confrontation are enlightening to say the least.
 

angelariz

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I am interested is Getting your veiws about JKD and the ground game.
Many individual in JKD study various ground fighting methods Bjj, Sambo, Dumog,
and CSW, just to name a few. In your experience, which arts do u fell blend best, with your style of JKD, and Why?????

In the early years Bruce Lee, also studied grappling, concepts from Judo, Ju-Jutsu and wrestling. Bruce extracted many concepts from these styles, and incorperated them into his own personal JKD.

How has the ground game changed over the last 30 years, since Bruce Lee's death????????

I look forward to your reply.................
Sijo BL got his ground game from different teachers. However one go to was Judo Gene Labelle (catch wrestling) and a Hapkido guy, I believe is last name was Rhee.
 

Mider

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Havent heard much of JKD ground fighting a lot of those guys do BJJ, Judo, Etc

JKD ground fighting is limited I think
 
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