It doesn't take 100% effort

[Bill Mattocks]

Controversial take.

It doesn't take superhuman effort to become a good martial artist. It doesn't take talent.

It takes a good learning environment with good instructors in a good art.

It takes the willingness to invest time and effort in learning. But it doesn't have to leave you gutted. That's a good way to decide it's too hard to keep doing it. It doesn't have to leave you injured from over straining yourself. That's another good route to quitting due to constant injuries.

What it takes is steady effort, but not superhuman effort. Give yourself permission to suck, but seek incremental improvement. Over time, you'll get better and faster and your skills will improve, but time and practice are the keys to success.

Be willing to let the process take as long as it takes. That period of time will be different for everyone.

I have seen so many highly-talented people start and make quick progress and then quit. I've seen many more who just basically have no natural talent whatsoever persevere and become excellent martial artists. They all seem to have the same attitude. They'll get there eventually; then they do.

Don't kill yourself. Just relax, keep training, and let it happen.

 

[_Simon_]

A great reminder, well said Bill

 

[isshinryuronin]

I kind of agree with everything in your post, Bill, not being able to disagree with any particular statement. But I think you makes it sound too easy here, leaving out the part you and I posted about in the new thread re: MA Resilience and Discipline. Put the 2 posts together and you've got the yin and the yang of it.

It's not that easy to be very good in MA. While it may not require 100% superhuman effort with masochistic abandonment, it takes a lot of effort (HOPEFULLY) to earn a well-deserved black belt and into the dans. How many drop out after just a year? There are many reasons, but one is that they don't have the drive/will/inner strength to tough it out. It's not like learning how to collect stamps. And like that pastime, it's not for everybody (I know, I tried it as a kid - boooring). I don't want to paint a dark, badass picture. If such a one can stick it out long enough, many can develop those attributes.

I've seen many more who just basically have no natural talent whatsoever persevere and become excellent martial artists.

Just like me. I was pretty fit when I started but would not say athletic or naturally talented at all. Just a normal, shy, somewhat lacking in confidence teen. Didn't know really anything about karate, had no particular goal, but for some inexplicable reason made myself a commitment to do it. (Maybe I just needed something to focus on besides not having any girlfriends.) "I gave myself no option to quit."

 

[Old CJ]

Thank you Bill. You are an inspiration. I have been considering quitting with the body pain lately. I am 69 years, old new to Karate (Starting in February). Practicing the roundhouse kicks are kicking my butt. When I started I could feel improvement every session. Now I feel I am regressing. I'm having pain along the right hip. sometimes it goes up the lower back.
I don't know where to go from here. I have enjoyed the progression of improving my skills and earning belts (all the way up to yellow lol).
Also I have no medical conditions or orthopedic problems that I know of.
Maybe I should get Xrays? My Doc wants wants me to take Cholesterol meds but I refuse. There's nothing else wrong with me but I'm too big. I'm 6ft1" 250lbs with a big gut.

 

[skribs]

I kind of agree with everything in your post, Bill, not being able to disagree with any particular statement. But I think you makes it sound too easy here, leaving out the part you and I posted about in the new thread re: MA Resilience and Discipline. Put the 2 posts together and you've got the yin and the yang of it.

It's not that easy to be very good in MA. While it may not require 100% superhuman effort with masochistic abandonment, it takes a lot of effort (HOPEFULLY) to earn a well-deserved black belt and into the dans. How many drop out after just a year? There are many reasons, but one is that they don't have the drive/will/inner strength to tough it out. It's not like learning how to collect stamps. And like that pastime, it's not for everybody (I know, I tried it as a kid - boooring). I don't want to paint a dark, badass picture. If such a one can stick it out long enough, many can develop those attributes.

Just like me. I was pretty fit when I started but would not say athletic or naturally talented at all. Just a normal, shy, somewhat lacking in confidence teen. Didn't know really anything about karate, had no particular goal, but for some inexplicable reason made myself a commitment to do it. (Maybe I just needed something to focus on besides not having any girlfriends.) "I gave myself no option to quit."

I'm doing fairly well in BJJ so far just by showing up and having fun. Nowhere near Dan level, though.

That's also pretty much what it took to get my 1st degree in HKD and my 3rd degree in TKD. I show up, have fun, memorize stuff, learn new ways of moving. And over time I got good and got rank.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Thank you Bill. You are an inspiration. I have been considering quitting with the body pain lately. I am 69 years, old new to Karate (Starting in February). Practicing the roundhouse kicks are kicking my butt. When I started I could feel improvement every session. Now I feel I am regressing. I'm having pain along the right hip. sometimes it goes up the lower back.
I don't know where to go from here. I have enjoyed the progression of improving my skills and earning belts (all the way up to yellow lol).
Also I have no medical conditions or orthopedic problems that I know of.
Maybe I should get Xrays? My Doc wants wants me to take Cholesterol meds but I refuse. There's nothing else wrong with me but I'm too big. I'm 6ft1" 250lbs with a big gut.

I'm 63 and going through some of the same issues you are. Feel like I'm fighting against the tide sometimes. I do kata and I know I've done it better. I practice kicks and stagger sometimes. I am embarrassed for myself. I don't get flack from anyone else, it's just me being hard on myself. I'm trying to just relax and do what I can.

If I may suggest taking the cholesterol meds (I presume statins)? I resisted my doctor a long time also. However, statins never made me feel poorly, and my cholesterol is now where it should be. And I keep reading about all the good that statins do for people besides just cholesterol. Anyway, I'm not preaching, just sharing my experience.

As to hip pain, I have it also at times. I stagger around and grumble about it. I also probably need to get it xrayed and maybe think about a hip replacement. As I'm told by some of my friends who've had it done, they were on their feet quickly and the pain is completely gone. I dunno. If it gets much worse, I guess it might be time.

You're not that big. I'm 5-10 and currently weigh 200. I was up to 288 at one point, but I've been losing weight for a long time; I stuck at 245 for years and then at 225 for more years, but now I'm finally sliding down further, with the help of the Mounjaro diabetes shot. When I was feeling my best in karate and competing and pretty much kicking ***, I was in my 50s and weighed 230 or so. Not bad for a tired old fat man.

Stick with it. Do what you can. One of my fellow students was still coming to dojo at 84; he finally stopped training when covid sidelined the dojo for a year and now he's finally done training; he sure had a good run. I'm guessing we've got some good years left.

As to roundhouse kicks, one of the tricks I learned (from my sensei) is to pivot on my base heel or ball of the foot (whichever works best for you) when I throw the kick. It takes a lot of stress off the knee and hip joints.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I kind of agree with everything in your post, Bill, not being able to disagree with any particular statement. But I think you makes it sound too easy here, leaving out the part you and I posted about in the new thread re: MA Resilience and Discipline. Put the 2 posts together and you've got the yin and the yang of it.

It's not that easy to be very good in MA. While it may not require 100% superhuman effort with masochistic abandonment, it takes a lot of effort (HOPEFULLY) to earn a well-deserved black belt and into the dans. How many drop out after just a year? There are many reasons, but one is that they don't have the drive/will/inner strength to tough it out. It's not like learning how to collect stamps. And like that pastime, it's not for everybody (I know, I tried it as a kid - boooring). I don't want to paint a dark, badass picture. If such a one can stick it out long enough, many can develop those attributes.

Just like me. I was pretty fit when I started but would not say athletic or naturally talented at all. Just a normal, shy, somewhat lacking in confidence teen. Didn't know really anything about karate, had no particular goal, but for some inexplicable reason made myself a commitment to do it. (Maybe I just needed something to focus on besides not having any girlfriends.) "I gave myself no option to quit."

Not so much 'easy' as 'relaxed'. I take a "I'll get there eventually" approach. Kind of like how I approach life. I'm just not in a rush. I'll learn new things in time; I just let it kind of wash over me and eventually it sticks. I've had friends who fret over "I'm just not getting it!" I fail to 'get' new things all the time. That's OK. It'll happen when it happens.

I learned a trick to opening stuck jars once. I stop trying to muscle it open. I relax my body except for my hands, apply pressure slowly and don't let up. In 30 seconds, the jar opens, and my hands are not torn up and I'm not huffing and puffing. It's not the power, it's the pressure over time. Kind of works for everything.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Possibly teachers generally think it's better that students err on the side of giving too much than too little. I'm not so sure, that approach has led to a number of injuries.

 

[Buka]

Controversial take.

I have seen so many highly-talented people start and make quick progress and then quit. I've seen many more who just basically have no natural talent whatsoever persevere and become excellent martial artists. They all seem to have the same attitude. They'll get there eventually; then they do.

I wanted to point out this part. Yeah, I’ve seen and experienced that, too. What I think happens is, those talented people excel right away and get all excited.

Then others, far less talented, catch up to them and start being way better than they are. Then talent boy runs away.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I wanted to point out this part. Yeah, I’ve seen and experienced that, too. What I think happens is, those talented people excel right away and get all excited.

Then others, far less talented, catch up to them and start being way better than they are. Then talent boy runs away.

True. I've seen it too. Having natural ability will definitely give you a head start and easy going at first. Then, a time comes when talent has reached its limit and hard work is required to advance. "What?! I've got to sweat and work my behind off now? No can do. Bye bye." Meanwhile, the guy who came in with simple guts, determination and motivation has no such ceiling.

Talent does not equate to inner strength. Luckily, I had no talent whatsoever so never had to deal with this . To be honest, I don't think I had "inner strength" either. It was more like wading into a river and letting the current carry me along not knowing where I'd end up. I just didn't have the sense to make for dry shore.

Having both natural ability and determination is good. But natural ability is a gift - determination is self-generated.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I am 69 years, ... I'm 6ft1" 250lbs ...

It's amazing that you can still maintain your weight at your age (I'm older than you). In the past 10 years, no matter how much that I ate, I just can't maintain my weight. I have tried very hard to gain 10 lb. But so far, I still have no luck. I always weight myself after eating. This will give me 2 more lb on my weight meter.

 

[mahnoorgul]

I've seen folks with natural talent burn out fast, while those who grind it out and stay patient really shine in the long run.

 

[Fungus]

Practicing the roundhouse kicks are kicking my butt. When I started I could feel improvement every session. Now I feel I am regressing. I'm having pain along the right hip. sometimes it goes up the lower back.

I recognize this phenomenon myself, there can be many reasons so hard to say what is the key issue and thus solution for you.

The roundhouse kicks is also something I struggled with. My advice would be to start practicing them at gedan/low-kick level first. Once you get technique and power, try to raise to liver, than to head. FAR from everyone will ever be able to do them properly at head level. If you do all you can, just to get the height, it often leads to terrible technique, bad balance and now power and pain.

I started training them high, and it took me some time to see that I jsut can't do them high. When I starte to excel them at waist or below, I got the techinque right and less pain. I focuse do get them with maximum power as low kicks first, on the heavy bag. The turning roundhouse kicks can also be done in different ways (different angles) and some of them may be easier for your back and mobility. I do the downwards angled, to the leg, but upwards angled to the ribs. The horizontal one is harder for me at higher levels. It brings my hip into an possible task. One of my insights was that there is not one technique but several, that is a little different depending on the target, so train them as separate techniques.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Thank you Bill. You are an inspiration. I have been considering quitting with the body pain lately. I am 69 years, old new to Karate (Starting in February). Practicing the roundhouse kicks are kicking my butt. When I started I could feel improvement every session. Now I feel I am regressing. I'm having pain along the right hip. sometimes it goes up the lower back.
I don't know where to go from here. I have enjoyed the progression of improving my skills and earning belts (all the way up to yellow lol).
Also I have no medical conditions or orthopedic problems that I know of.
Maybe I should get Xrays? My Doc wants wants me to take Cholesterol meds but I refuse. There's nothing else wrong with me but I'm too big. I'm 6ft1" 250lbs with a big gut.

Roundhouse kicks are a weird thing for me. After 25ish years of training, you'd think I have them down. If I'm kicking a pad, or bag, they're good. If I'm kicking them in the air, but going all the way though, I'm good. If I'm kicking in the air repeatedly (so kick - stop at where I'd make contact, and place it back to it's starting point), my hip feels all out of whack and sometimes with pain that goes either down my leg or up my back. And I'm half your age.

I'm pretty sure it's stopping the momentum and retracting that are unnatural movements. If it causes you pain, but you're able to do them against a bag without that pain, just tell your sensei that. No reason to hurt yourself over the least important part of the kick.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I have that problem. I can kick a bag head height, no problem, but I can't seem to chamber, kick, retract and then return to chamber. I have a theory that it's down to poor balance, which makes sense given my autistic proclivities.

 

[Fungus]

If I'm kicking in the air repeatedly (so kick - stop at where I'd make contact, and place it back to it's starting point), my hip feels all out of whack and sometimes with pain that goes either down my leg or up my back. And I'm half your age.

I'm pretty sure it's stopping the momentum and retracting that are unnatural movements. If it causes you pain, but you're able to do them against a bag without that pain, just tell your sensei that.

Excellent point. This is exactly my experience as well! That "stopping in the air", in particular if you want a "snappy stop" that LOOKS GREAT in kata, leads to somehow more back reaction on the hip.

 

[Fungus]

I have that problem. I can kick a bag head height, no problem, but I can't seem to chamber, kick, retract and then return to chamber. I have a theory that it's down to poor balance, which makes sense given my autistic proclivities.

I think there are two issues, the stopping does give more backreaction that can give more pain if you have an underlying problem already.

But to stop in the air also takes LOTS more muscle. When you just trhow your leg up there, you use the momentum. You need to be very strong to make the same kicks sloowly. We do that excersise at times, to make kicks in slow motion, and it is a great challenge even for the black belts it seems.

My problem as in the very beginning was that I failed to distinguish between beeing to weak in muscles and lacking joint and other mobility. So "swinging" when your mobility is limited is a very bad idea and can lead to further issues and stretches.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Practicing the roundhouse kicks are kicking my butt. When I started I could feel improvement every session. Now I feel I am regressing. I'm having pain along the right hip. sometimes it goes up the lower back.

my hip feels all out of whack and sometimes with pain that goes either down my leg or up my back.

It's possible the motion is putting pressure on your sciatic nerve.? Or there could be there's a problem with your execution of the kick. Sometimes a slight adjustment can make a big difference. If you guys can post a video of your kicks maybe you could get some feedback on it.

 

[drop bear]

Roundhouse kicks are a weird thing for me. After 25ish years of training, you'd think I have them down. If I'm kicking a pad, or bag, they're good. If I'm kicking them in the air, but going all the way though, I'm good. If I'm kicking in the air repeatedly (so kick - stop at where I'd make contact, and place it back to it's starting point), my hip feels all out of whack and sometimes with pain that goes either down my leg or up my back. And I'm half your age.

I'm pretty sure it's stopping the momentum and retracting that are unnatural movements. If it causes you pain, but you're able to do them against a bag without that pain, just tell your sensei that. No reason to hurt yourself over the least important part of the kick.

I do lazy kicks in the air if I have to do them. So I don't have to try and stop a turned over hip.

 

[Steve]

Not disagreeing with anyone who has said they see folks with talent quit and folks without natural talent stick it out. I don’t doubt that you have.

However, there’s a lot of bias in the thread ignoring all the people with no talent who quit and all the very talented people who end up being high level practitioners and elite level athletes.

I don’t believe talent (or lack of) is any kind of reliable indicator of grit, patience, determination, or any other relevant trait. Just seeing a theme in a couple of the posts in the thread.