Is it common for flexible people later in life to have bad muscle memory from when they weren't?

[Acronym]

In other words kicking the same as when you didn't have full range of motion...

Chuck Norris was only able to do the full vertical splits in his 30s, yet he still looked as stiff as when he couldn't. Not saying he was bad but he certainly showed stiffness in a lot techniques.

So is this muscle memory that he didn't pay attention to while he became fully flexible or is the full vertical splits not a guarante that your technique is going to be that much better?

I mean why wouldn't it given that it accounts for full range of motion?

Edit: Move it to general martial arts discussion.

 

[jobo]

In other words kicking the same as when you didn't have full range of motion...

Chuck Norris was only able to do the full vertical splits in his 30s, yet he still looked as stiff as when he couldn't. Not saying he was bad but he certainly showed stiffness in a lot techniques.

So is this muscle memory that he didn't pay attention to while he became fully flexible or is the full vertical splits not a guarante that your technique is going to be that much better?

I mean why wouldn't it given that it accounts for full range of motion?

Edit: Move it to general martial arts discussion.

muscle memory is oft quoted and nearly always miss understood, muscles do not have memory, your central nervous system does

some people are just more flexible ? less stiff than others, it can possibly be improved, but seldom to the point they match someone naturally more flexible who is also working to improve their flexibility

the splits has very little to do with how high you can kick, how good your techniques is, its a party trick and not much more

good technique is being able to land kicks that hurt, improvement that dont result in more kicks landing that hurt more are not improvements at all, how stiff you look is completely irreverent to that

my kicking height is strangely tied to if i have a target or not and how hard im hitting, no target / little umph equals no height at all, thats my CNS restricting movement. as CN was aiming at nothing at all in his TV shows maybe he had the same issue ? as he was certainty a more than competent fighter ( nb he was also pretty old

 

[dvcochran]

You are going to have to rephrase your question. I am not at all certain what you are asking.

 

[punisher73]

Jobo is correct, "muscle memory" is just related the neurology of how often you have trained that technique. To state it in layman's terms, the more you do a technique, the stronger the connection becomes to perform that action. So, if you have truly ingrained a technique/skill than it comes back much faster due to the hardwiring with your nervous system than it took to originally get it.

Your body will always try to reach "homeostasis", which is a balance to maximize resources. For example, weightlifting puts a strain on your body, so your body adapts and makes itself stronger so it doesn't expend as much energy to do the task. But, if you stop lifting, the body doesn't need the extra muscle anymore, which requires alot of energy (calories) to sustain so you will go back to your "starting self".

For flexibility, again, as Jobo pointed out relies on your CNS and "puts the brakes" on you when it perceives danger to prevent you from straining a muscle. This is why when under anesthesia most people could have their legs moved into a full split position. Here is a test for yourself, if you can sit and move one leg out to a 90 degree angle than you are capable of the full splits, it is just a neuro issue to relax the stretch reflex/response.

So, back to your original question. Many people are very stiff due to sitting around all day, if they stop stretching as much as they did, they will go back to how they would be. If they had little natural flexibility, then they will still be stiff. If they had more natural flexibility it will go back to that (taking into account age progression and loss).

Also, people are built differently. There was an older guy in my class that when we did a butterfly stretch could put his knees flat on the ground and couldn't understand why we did the stretch. But, he couldn't get past his knees trying to touch his toes when trying to do a hamstring stretch.

 

[Acronym]

No it is not.

"[Muscle memory is a form of procedur memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition"

That's a QUOTE.

Jobo is correct, "muscle memory" is just related the neurology of how often you have trained that technique. To state it in layman's terms, the more you do a technique, the stronger the connection becomes to perform that action. So, if you have truly ingrained a technique/skill than it comes back much faster due to the hardwiring with your nervous system than it took to originally get it.

Your body will always try to reach "homeostasis", which is a balance to maximize resources. For example, weightlifting puts a strain on your body, so your body adapts and makes itself stronger so it doesn't expend as much energy to do the task. But, if you stop lifting, the body doesn't need the extra muscle anymore, which requires alot of energy (calories) to sustain so you will go back to your "starting self".

For flexibility, again, as Jobo pointed out relies on your CNS and "puts the brakes" on you when it perceives danger to prevent you from straining a muscle. This is why when under anesthesia most people could have their legs moved into a full split position. Here is a test for yourself, if you can sit and move one leg out to a 90 degree angle than you are capable of the full splits, it is just a neuro issue to relax the stretch reflex/response.

So, back to your original question. Many people are very stiff due to sitting around all day, if they stop stretching as much as they did, they will go back to how they would be. If they had little natural flexibility, then they will still be stiff. If they had more natural flexibility it will go back to that (taking into account age progression and loss).

Also, people are built differently. There was an older guy in my class that when we did a butterfly stretch could put his knees flat on the ground and couldn't understand why we did the stretch. But, he couldn't get past his knees trying to touch his toes when trying to do a hamstring stretch.

 

[Acronym]

You are going to have to rephrase your question. I am not at all certain what you are asking.

If you have suboptimal technique due to stiffness, is it common that this stays with you even when you no longer have this obstacle, because your body remembers doing it the way you did when you did not have as good flexibility

 

[Acronym]

muscle memory is oft quoted and nearly always miss understood, muscles do not have memory, your central nervous system does

some people are just more flexible ? less stiff than others, it can possibly be improved, but seldom to the point they match someone naturally more flexible who is also working to improve their flexibility

the splits has very little to do with how high you can kick, how good your techniques is, its a party trick and not much more

good technique is being able to land kicks that hurt, improvement that dont result in more kicks landing that hurt more are not improvements at all, how stiff you look is completely irreverent to that

my kicking height is strangely tied to if i have a target or not and how hard im hitting, no target / little umph equals no height at all, thats my CNS restricting movement. as CN was aiming at nothing at all in his TV shows maybe he had the same issue ? as he was certainty a more than competent fighter ( nb he was also pretty old

It's such a shame you never joined K1 with your delusional Karate power.

 

[dvcochran]

If you have suboptimal technique due to stiffness, is it common that this stays with you even when you no longer have this obstacle, because your body remembers doing it the way you did when you did not have as good flexibility

As others have stated, flexibility is different person to person and some have to work at it more diligently than others, throughout their life. So yes, flexibility will affect technique and must be worked. Thing of it as in integral part of training.

 

[Acronym]

As others have stated, flexibility is different person to person and some have to work at it more diligently than others, throughout their life. So yes, flexibility will affect technique and must be worked. Thing of it as in integral part of training.

One more time then. If YOU NO LONGER have stiffness, will your body still kick as when you were stiff, without you knowing about it?

Do you understand know?

 

[jobo]

One more time then. If YOU NO LONGER have stiffness, will your body still kick as when you were stiff, without you knowing about it?

Do you understand know?

well yes one more time, stiffness comes from the cns( if your young)

 

[dvcochran]

One more time then. If YOU NO LONGER have stiffness, will your body still kick as when you were stiff, without you knowing about it?

Do you understand know?

One more time; quit watching videos, get your ash off the couch and stretch/exercise. The relationship is near 1:1. The more you exercise the easier things will be. The "you no longer have stiffness", which is exactly what you said but not what I believe you meant, while I have no doubt is a real thing is completely up to you to make better.
Asking questions and watching videos without actually Trying to fix the issue is beyond useless.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

No it is not.

"[Muscle memory is a form of procedur memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition"

That's a QUOTE.

Quoting something without providing explanation of the quote, is almost as useless as using the fact that it's a quote as your argument without saying who it's a quote of. I could find a quote supporting just about anything that I want. For those wondering, the quote is part of the first sentence of this wiki page Muscle memory - Wikipedia.

The next two sentences, "When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed with little to no conscious effort. This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems.", sound remarkably similar to @punisher73 's claim "To state it in layman's terms, the more you do a technique, the stronger the connection becomes to perform that action. So, if you have truly ingrained a technique/skill than it comes back much faster due to the hardwiring with your nervous system than it took to originally get it." that he's apparently disputing with the first sentence.

 

[punisher73]

No it is not.

"[Muscle memory is a form of procedur memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition"

That's a QUOTE.

Yes, from wikipedia. NOT a scientific journal. The process is called "myelination" if you want to get technical. It has to do with your neural pathways. Which would be what we are concerned with in stretching.

Bodybuilders will refer to "muscle memory" as well, which is a slightly different process. It has to do with "hypertrophy" (splitting of the muscle cells) and if they just shrink in size and retain their nucleus to regrow. You regain size/strength very quickly because the cell has already split and it just regrows in size. But, the muscles don't "remember" how to do a squat/bench press etc. That is all your neurology. This is the reason why brand new beginners gain strength very quickly, the initial gains are due to better neuropathways in doing the task.

There is no actual "muscle memory" in a physical task. Your muscle cells only have one function. They either contract or they relax. They don't "remember" anything. All of the rest of it is neurology.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

my kicking height is strangely tied to if i have a target or not and how hard im hitting, no target / little umph equals no height at all, thats my CNS restricting movement. as CN was aiming at nothing at all in his TV shows maybe he had the same issue ? as he was certainty a more than competent fighter ( nb he was also pretty old

I have the same issue, thought I was alone on that. I can't kick nearly as high if there's not a pad there, or a body/head. Once it's there my kick is a lot more fluid and I can kick higher. The fluidity aspect of it really shows with a roundhouse kick; it's like my body knows there's nothing there and doesn't want to whiff so it just comes out awkward/stiff without a target. I could definitely see this being the case for Norris.

 

[dvcochran]

I have the same issue, thought I was alone on that. I can't kick nearly as high if there's not a pad there, or a body/head. Once it's there my kick is a lot more fluid and I can kick higher. The fluidity aspect of it really shows with a roundhouse kick; it's like my body knows there's nothing there and doesn't want to whiff so it just comes out awkward/stiff without a target. I could definitely see this being the case for Norris.

I am with you. For me part of the 'air' kick is the fear of hyperextension. There is just less mental motivation when there is nothing there to kick.

 

[Acronym]

I have the same issue, thought I was alone on that. I can't kick nearly as high if there's not a pad there, or a body/head.

Are you sure it's just not the fact that you aren't sufficiently warmed up at home and thus your body locks up? I would say what you are describing is not normal.

 

[Acronym]

There is no actual "muscle memory" in a physical task. Your muscle cells only have one function. They either contract or they relax. They don't "remember" anything. All of the rest of it is neurology.

That's not true. Once I started to kick with open hips, which I never did in my first years, it always stayed with my mechanics even when I stopped training for 6+ months and when I felt a lot stiffer.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Are you sure it's just not the fact that you aren't sufficiently warmed up at home and thus your body locks up? I would say what you are describing is not normal.

Nope, since it's not just at home. And I've got pads at home that I use as well. The only difference is whether or not there is a pad/person in front of me.

 

[Acronym]

Nope, since it's not just at home. And I've got pads at home that I use as well. The only difference is whether or not there is a pad/person in front of me.

Do you have any clips?

 

[Acronym]

Here is Chuck post flexibility.


His kicks are still stiff.