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Angelusmortis
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What would be the WC standard (if there is such a thing) technique for taking down an untrained/skilled fighter on the street, if they tried to close the range and go for grappling straight away?
spatulahunter
Green Belt
when used in street situations wing chun is very quick and to the point. A proficient wing chun fighter would try to hurt them quickly and if need be brutallly.ed-swckf said:
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Angelusmortis
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- Thread Starter
- #4
In other words, belt them hard, belt them fast, don't be there when they try for the grab??? I like....:ultracool I like a lot....Looking forward to starting WC, going with an open mind, no mind...
Danny T
Senior Master
What would be the WC standard (if there is such a thing) technique for taking down an untrained/skilled fighter on the street, if they tried to close the range and go for grappling straight away?Angelusmortis said:
Why would you attempt a takedown on someone if the range hasn't been closed? Simply keep the distance. If they have closed distance and are in a takedown (grappling) situation then that is a different situation.
Can you be a bit more specific as to what kind of takedown? Is the other person in front or behind you? Have they closed enough to have gotten into standing grappling and are attempting a takedown or are they shooting in for a leg takedown? There are many other possibilities. Maybe from these questions you can ascertain they is no standard for there is no standard takedown.
As to a standard for any one particular takedown or shoot it again is dependent upon several actions such as what direction the opponent is taking you. Are they lifting or are they pulling downward? Lets look at a single leg takedown. Is it your front leg or the rear? Is the opponent continuing straight in with a shoot or is the opponent taking control of the leg and turning? There many different ways to counter and recounter a takedown or shoot and each is dependent upon what the other person is attempting to do.
Someone stated, not be there. Get out of the way and make them pay
Great advice. However, if you werent there how could you facilitate a takedown as the other fighter closed the range?
Someone else stated; A proficient wing chun fighter would try to hurt them quickly and if need be brutallly. This is true but is not specific to WC. I believe just about all of the fighting arts would try to hurt quickly and if need be would be brutal.
Another stated. In other words, belt them hard, belt them fast, don't be there when they try for the grab???
Again this is not specific to WC and would be found in most all fighting arts.
I know I havent answered your question as of yet. Give a bit more information about the situation and I will gladly get more specific to a possible answer.
Danny
how do you mean? i'm not sure if you misinterpreted the statement. But if you move out of the way of someone shooting for your legs that is a wing chun technique, and when i said not be there i meant not be where they are shooting for. its a wing chun response through and through as far as i am concerned, personally i'd lap or elbow the head as i move off the line but no one does wing chun the same way and preferences for dealing with different lines and attacks will come from their own training.Danny T said:
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Angelusmortis
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- #7
All I was enquiring about was, whether or not there were any specific responses in WC to a frontal grappling situ. Another person squaring up, from the front, a few feet away, limited space etc...
although wing chun is a close combat system controling your space is imperative as is eating up your opponents space unless flight is your plan in wich case you want to make the space for you to be able to do so. the same with grappling, you want to control the situation and fight your fight, the grappler is going to invade your space and to stand there using force against someone charging you down isn't wing chun, slip the line s/he is charging but not to soon or s/he will track you, not being at the and of the attack is the best deffence and it puts your strategy one step ahead of your opponents in order for you to then fight your fight. The technique you then use will be dependant on the attributes of the particular situation, he might have shot really deep and you might just want to kick him in the *** and send him on his way with suitible embarrasment, more skilled fighters are less likely to make such a mistake and you may even find yourself taken to the floor, you can use wing chun on the floor when mounted just remember this is survival and you want to hurt this opponent enough to stop them hurting you, offence is a defence and you can be offensive still when taken to the floor.Angelusmortis said:
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Van Kuen
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- Thread Starter
- #9
I've had experience in BJJ, soley for the purposes of seeing how my gung fu squared up to it, and to get a better knowledge for the new "fad martial art" (it changes every decade or so). So if everyone is going to be doing it, I better have a working knowledge of it.
Long story short, the "don't be there" idea is indeed a wing chun technique, but then that statement in and of itself can be related to any martial art just about. (You can hear mr. miyagi telling daniel san "best block is not be there")
But to rebuttle it as not being wing chun is also wrong. Not to mention the fact that staying "out of range" is not a wing chun maxim. Remember "loi lau hoi sung lut sau jik chung". There is in fact a footwork movement called Toi ma, which is basically one leg taking a step back to remove it from the equation of a takedown. It allows for moving the target leg out of the way and still enables counter attacks. It may not be taught in all lines of wing chun...but then again...I see more and more wing chun instructors incorperating ground fighting and gf defenses, so you never know now.
One of the things I personally like to do that is strictly wing chun, aside from the above mentioned, is to use what's called a backward bracing stance or "toi gok ma". It enables me to get a leg out of the way and use a 45 degree back step while allowing me to stay aggressive with my hands or lead foot, I can use it for redirection of energy easily and then follow up with chasing steps to finish the fight or take off. Just some more food for thought for you.
Keep in mind that the above stated techniques are used mainly against a single leg shoot, not a double leg takedown or anything like that. There are way too many variable in fighting to make a technique "set". But since wing chun should be "alive" with it's techniques, apply the concept of whats being taught and adapt it to suit the situation. That is the true nature of wing chun and quite possibly all martial arts.
Long story short, the "don't be there" idea is indeed a wing chun technique, but then that statement in and of itself can be related to any martial art just about. (You can hear mr. miyagi telling daniel san "best block is not be there")
But to rebuttle it as not being wing chun is also wrong. Not to mention the fact that staying "out of range" is not a wing chun maxim. Remember "loi lau hoi sung lut sau jik chung". There is in fact a footwork movement called Toi ma, which is basically one leg taking a step back to remove it from the equation of a takedown. It allows for moving the target leg out of the way and still enables counter attacks. It may not be taught in all lines of wing chun...but then again...I see more and more wing chun instructors incorperating ground fighting and gf defenses, so you never know now.
One of the things I personally like to do that is strictly wing chun, aside from the above mentioned, is to use what's called a backward bracing stance or "toi gok ma". It enables me to get a leg out of the way and use a 45 degree back step while allowing me to stay aggressive with my hands or lead foot, I can use it for redirection of energy easily and then follow up with chasing steps to finish the fight or take off. Just some more food for thought for you.
Keep in mind that the above stated techniques are used mainly against a single leg shoot, not a double leg takedown or anything like that. There are way too many variable in fighting to make a technique "set". But since wing chun should be "alive" with it's techniques, apply the concept of whats being taught and adapt it to suit the situation. That is the true nature of wing chun and quite possibly all martial arts.
Indeed, i mean as many arts as there are there is only the human capability of attack we deal with and all arts should be prepared for the varients that can intail, the best way for that in my opinion is as you say for wing chun to be alive, thats why we spend all the time training, different partners, different situations. I react completely differently to diffrerent training partners.Van Kuen said:
I completely agree with you that the idea of not being there is applied by many martial arts and some people will employ it without any martial art training at all. And there is a myriad of ways to interperate it depending on ones personal mindset.
Fading back 45 is also something i like to employ, its comfortable and continues to give you control over your space whilst giving you an open line to maximise. One thing people have to keep in mind is that although you are steping back you aren't stepping back on the line the attacker is driving down, again its back to "not being there".
Interesting and good post van kuen, and incidently, welcome to the boards
