In reality, it doesn't work

[drop bear]

I have never looked at a system in this fashion. While I understand the concept due to your post, it seems that the two should be entwined.

MA principles without technique to express them are useless.
Technique executed without being based on principles will not be effective.

In fact principle based should be more inclined to work. Because a principle should be able do something.

I don't know. Say, I suggested a principle like. If I hold an object close to my body. I can hold it for longer.

I mean. It should do that.

Otherwise I don't see the point.

 

[Same Trick]

Taiji solo form training -> Taiji push hand training -> ???

The last part is missing.

I’d say for self defense, push hands with its variations practice would probably be sufficient . But if one aim for the competition, the ring/mat one have to get into a free sparring mode practice. If one which enter a boxing ring one have to beforehand put on the gloves and spar

 

[Xue Sheng]

Mmm, the posture there is, it’s just called “low single whip” instead of SCD.

Picture up at the left corner of their website

Forms - T'ai Chi Ch'uan

positive there isn't.... not from Tung to my shifu to me.... single whip lower posture is NOT snake creeps down..... it is single whip with a slant downward, most certainly not snake creeps down (I've done that to in 24 form, I know what snake creeps down is)...... I've been doing Traditional Yang for over 30 years, also was told it was ok for me to teach.... snake creeps down is not there

Tung Kai Ying did learn some from Tung Ying Chieh, also learned from his father Tung Hu Ling. Tung Kia Ying is very good. But I never trained with him.... but from the list you supplied, there is no snake creeps down... as for the picture, yes, I know what it is, but it is not in the long form. There are multiple forms from Tung Ying Chieh, there is even a Hao form, that I do not know. and a double Dao form from Tung Kai Ying that my shifu did not teach; But there is the long form, 2 fast forms, 2 dao forms, jain form, pole form and multiple push hands drills and some qigong too. My shifu is considerably older than Tung Kai Ying and was a friend and classmate of Tung Hu Ling.... helped Tung Hu Ling open a school in Thailand many years ago. Tung Hu Ling made up some of his own forms and tweaked what he learned from his father, I do not know what all those tweaks were. There is even a fast form out there, that Tung Hu Ling made up on the fly to get.a guy to quit bugging him about teaching him the Tung fast form, which he did not want to teach him..... My Shifu, even per Tung Hu Ling, does the form a lot like Tung Ying Chieh.... However my shifu did change at least one thing, the end of one of the fast forms

.......so what is your point in this discussion.... I'm not making this up and don't appreciate the inference that I am lying or clueless.....

 

[Same Trick]

positive there isn't.... not from Tung to my shifu to me.... single whip lower posture is NOT snake creeps down..... it is single whip with a slant downward, most certainly not snake creeps down (I've done that to in 24 form...... I've been doing this for over 30 years, also was told it was ok for me to teach.... it is not there.......so what is your point in this discussion.... I'm not mking this up and don't appreciate the inference that I am lying or clueless.....

I’m pretty sure Tung’s traditional YCF form does their low single whip the same way as what otherwise is called snake creeps down.
The 24 you mention I’ll guess is the so called “Beijing” 24 ? That one’s snake creeps down is another creature since one doesn’t sink back
into the back leg but instead push out the front leg, the more common gongfu way to go down into a pubu..

 

[windwalker099]

have never looked at a system in this fashion. While I understand the concept due to your post, it seems that the two should be entwined.

MA principles without technique to express them are useless.
Technique executed without being based on principles will not be effective.

In fact principle based should be more inclined to work. Because a principle should be able do something.

I don't know. Say, I suggested a principle like. If I hold an object close to my body. I can hold it for longer.

I mean. It should do that.

Otherwise I don't see the point.

good observations

one way is not better then the other, they do in fact overlap.
The difference might be said to be approach..
As outlined by David Chin, in the video apparently not watched or his commentary, missed by some who who commented.

He outlined 'snake creeps down' as a technique that wouldn't work by some adhering strictly to the "movement" over the principles that allow it to function effectively, not necessarily reflected in the movement.

He then discussed how felt karate was technique-based, whereas tai chi is principle-based. I agree
He explained that all movements in tai chi contain the same core principles 'Eight Gates & Five Steps,' expressed in different ways.

On the other hand, if one views things as technique-based, they will always question why certain techniques are not part of a specific style. Maybe they don't follow or express the principles it's based on as well..

The naming of "taiji" itself, said to be by the observations of somebody watching it felt expressed the principles of taiji..

Inspired by the way Yang moved and executed his techniques, Weng felt that Yang's movements and techniques expressed the physical manifestation of the philosophy of taiji. Weng wrote for him a matching verse:[9] Hands Holding taiji shakes the whole world, a chest containing ultimate skill defeats a gathering of heroes.

It might be said that it's two sides of the same coin—as long as the coin is useful for its purpose.
One can determine whether the coin is fake or real."

Spend your money "time" wisely,,,be sure you know what you want to buy with it...

 

[windwalker099]

I’m pretty sure Tung’s traditional YCF form does their low single whip the same way as what otherwise is called snake creeps down.

Did you watch the video of Kai Yin Tung ?

What he shows "snake creeps down", was the way we practiced it in Hawaii

 

[Xue Sheng]

post deleted, more later

 

[Xue Sheng]

post deleted, more later

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK @windwalker099 & @Same Trick

I have not done the long form in quite sometime, I want to say a year, maybe it has been less time, not sure. I got sick of Yang Taijiquan, Yang family, Yang Politics and the watering down of all things taijiquan being perpetrated in the name of Yang.

But you guts got me to work though the form again.... anf I doubt I will doit again.... you are right, snake creeps down is in the form... I forgot it, and that is not surorising since I feel it is the most useless posture in the entire form. It had no legitimate application, and it is there for show and possibly leg strength..... basically, I have no use for the form. The only use I ever had for it was years ago, after I learned 24 form, when I was physical security for the State and I had to do a round on a floor with air handlers. I had to walk all the way around a big AC duct to go out on the roof.... I used it to get under the duct.... other than that, it has no real use IMO. probably why I forgot it... I have no use for it. It is not in the forms I put together for my stlye. It was , ut I took it out. Sorry about my lapse in memory.... and hopefully I will never have to do the form again...

There is a XIngyiquan Neigong training that has a very similar posture, but it is for leg strength and done on both side.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

snake creeps down is in the form... I forgot it, and that is not surorising since I feel it is the most useless posture in the entire form.

In Chang Taiji, the SCD can be used as firemen's carry.

You have right leg forward and your opponent has left leg forward (mirror stance).

- Your left hand controls your opponent's left leading arm.
- You move right leg behind his leading left leg.
- Your right hand goes under his left arm and grab his right leg.
- Your right hand then pulls his right leg while your upper body push him.

 

[Same Trick]

OK @windwalker099 & @Same Trick

I have not done the long form in quite sometime, I want to say a year, maybe it has been less time, not sure. I got sick of Yang Taijiquan, Yang family, Yang Politics and the watering down of all things taijiquan being perpetrated in the name of Yang.

But you guts got me to work though the form again.... anf I doubt I will doit again.... you are right, snake creeps down is in the form... I forgot it, and that is not surorising since I feel it is the most useless posture in the entire form. It had no legitimate application, and it is there for show and possibly leg strength..... basically, I have no use for the form. The only use I ever had for it was years ago, after I learned 24 form, when I was physical security for the State and I had to do a round on a floor with air handlers. I had to walk all the way around a big AC duct to go out on the roof.... I used it to get under the duct.... other than that, it has no real use IMO. probably why I forgot it... I have no use for it. It is not in the forms I put together for my stlye. It was , ut I took it out. Sorry about my lapse in memory.... and hopefully I will never have to do the form again...

There is a XIngyiquan Neigong training that has a very similar posture, but it is for leg strength and done on both side.

No problem, I just felt sure that the “low SW” is the same move as otherwise called SCD, I didn’t imply that you were lying, I’m sorry if it came out like that.

I used to be a forms nerd, which still shows in that I still remember the taiji forms I learned 25-30+ years ago although I don’t practice them anymore, I just stick to Yang-85, Wu-83 and Hunyuan-24, taijiwize that is, guess I’m still a forms nerd

 

[Same Trick]

oops dublett post

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I just stick to Yang-85, Wu-83 and Hunyuan-24, taijiwize that is, guess I’m still a forms nerd

I used to be a forms nerd. But not anymore.

Do you ever feel boring to do the same form over and over every day?

Today, when I walked on the beach, I did the following combos:

- foot sweep, leg block.
- sickle hook, leg lift.
- outer hook, inner hook.
- leg spring, front cut.
- ...

My Chinese wrestling teacher had never taught me those combos. I try to create different combos on different days. The Chinese wrestling has over 210 different throws. I could create 210 x 210 = 44,100 different 2 moves combos. Since I have to link 2 moves to make logic sense, it's a personal challenge for me, and I enjoy this kind of challenge.

The nice thing about this is every day I'll have new things to work on.

 

[Same Trick]

I used to be a forms nerd. But not anymore.

Do you ever feel boring to do the same form over and over every day?

Today, when I walked on the beach, I did the following combos:

- foot sweep, leg block.
- sickle hook, leg lift.
- outer hook, inner hook.
- leg spring, front cut.
- ...

My Chinese wrestling teacher had never taught me those combos. I try to create different combos on different days. The Chinese wrestling has over 210 different throws. I could create 210 x 210 = 44,100 different 2 moves combos. Since I have to link 2 moves to make logic sense, it's a personal challenge for me, and I enjoy this kind of challenge.

The nice thing about this is every day I'll have new things to work on.

Actually I do not feel boring doing the forms, never have, I’ve an inherent stoic quality toward physical activity since as long I can remember . However I have become more relaxed about it since a couple of years, I don’t crave to challenge myself to do more, now having built up an daily training routine with exercises from TJQ, XYQ and Tongbeiquan that I feel suited with slight variations from day to day.

 

[Same Trick]

The training never stops, when certain things been ingrained in one’s core it comes along into one’s daily foreseen as well as unforeseen activities, the activities keeps the core alive and nourished at same time the trained core keeps the activities done smooth and precise

At this level one’s art always work

 

[Xue Sheng]

In Chang Taiji, the SCD can be used as firemen's carry.

You have right leg forward and your opponent has left leg forward (mirror stance).

- Your left hand controls your opponent's left leading arm.
- You move right leg behind his leading left leg.
- Your right hand goes under his left arm and grab his right leg.
- Your right hand then pulls his right leg while your upper body push him.

View attachment 31718

Wu style does something similar