In reality, it doesn't work

[windwalker099]

David Chin, a noted Hop Gar master, presented a lecture at the 1998 Guang Ping Association. He talked about timing and movements when used in real time, demonstrating the "snake creeps down" technique and its practical application. He contrasted technique-based approaches with principle-based ones, emphasizing that Taiji is principle-based rather than technique-based.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Taiji is principle-based rather than technique-based.

All MA are principle-base. Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao) has 30 principles:

撕(Si) - Tearing
崩(Beng) - Cracking
捅(Tong) - Striking push
褪(tun) - Hand pushing
肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing

蓋(Gai) - Covering hands
攞(Lou)- Pulling hands
搖(Yao) - Body-shaking hands
捯(Dao) - Reverse arm-holding
抖(Dou) – Shaking

分(Fen) - Separate hands
掖(Ye) - Hand tucking
引(Yin) - Arm guiding
捧(Peng) - Arm raising
架(Jia) - Elbow Locking

圈(Quan) – Under hook
抄(Chao) - Over hook
抹(Mo) – Wiping
偏(Pian) – Head circling
夾(Jia) – Clamping head

摘(Zai) – Helmet removing
摀(Wu) – Face covering
速(Su) – Forehead push
墬(Zhui) - Sticking drop
撈 (Lao) – Leg seize

環(Huan) – Neck surrounding
托(Tuo) – Chin pushing
封(Feng) – Throat/waist blocking
撒(Sa) – Casting
飄(Piao) - Floating hand

 

[windwalker099]

All MA are principle-base (grammar).

In the video, David Chin, mentioned he felt taiji was was different because it was principle based.
not technique based...

Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao) 30 principles:

Are they principles or techniques ?

One of my teachers wrote this.
Might help to clarify ...methods of training...

A “wide” system has much fewer techniques, but looks to the changes possible for each of them. So for instance, you might only have 5 or 6 basic punches… but many “changes” associated with those punches. See also Baqua, with its emphasis on changes

principle based.

“A “narrow” system is one that specifies a particular response for a particular attack. So for every possible attack, there is a specific response. And because there are a great many possible attacks, there are also a great may specific techniques to counter them. With “narrow” systems, you have A LOT of techniques — like the proverbial 108 hand techniques, for instance

technique based.

The way to learn how to use a wide system (like White Crane) is then to gain experience with using the limited number of techniques you have available, in a wide assortment of attacks. In other words, you have to use the techniques in sparring… a lot of sparing… so you can learn how a single punch can be used against multiple attack patterns”

Mike Staples

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are they principles or techniques ?

Those are principles.

The Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao) techniques are:

踢(Ti) - Forward kick,
撮(Cuo) - Scooping kick,
粘(Zhan) - Sticking kick,
撞(Zhuang) - Trunk hitting,
靠(Kao) - Advance squeeze,

彈(Tan) - Spring,
挑(Tiao) - Hooking kick,
纏(Chan) - Foot entangling,
合(He) - Inner hook,
掏(Tao) - Inner knee seizing,

穿(Chuan) - Fireman’s carry,
撿(Jian) - Foot picking,
沖(Chong) - Inner kick,
掛(Gua) - Inner heel sweep,
刀(Dao) - Inner sickle,

蹩(Bie) - Break,
撩(Liao) - Back kick,
扣(Kou) - Knee seizing,
切(Qie) - Front cut,
削(Xiao) - Sickle hooking,

擰(Ning) - Wheeling,
撳(Qin) - Pressing,
摟(Lou) - Spine lock,
搵(Wen) – Lifting
揣(Chuai) – Overhead,

勾(Gou) - Back sickle,
抱(Bao) - Back raising,
轟(Hong) - Shoving,
裏(Li) - Back inner hook,
擓(Kuai) - Leg bending lift,

 

[windwalker099]

Those are principles.

The Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao) techniques are:

踢(Ti) - Forward kick,
撮(Cuo) - Scooping kick,
粘(Zhan) - Sticking kick,
撞(Zhuang) - Trunk hitting,
靠(Kao) - Advance squeeze,

彈(Tan) - Spring,
挑(Tiao) - Hooking kick,
纏(Chan) - Foot entangling,
合(He) - Inner hook,
掏(Tao) - Inner knee seizing,

穿(Chuan) - Fireman’s carry,
撿(Jian) - Foot picking,
沖(Chong) - Inner kick,
掛(Gua) - Inner heel sweep,
刀(Dao) - Inner sickle,

蹩(Bie) - Break,
撩(Liao) - Back kick,
扣(Kou) - Knee seizing,
切(Qie) - Front cut,
削(Xiao) - Sickle hooking,

擰(Ning) - Wheeling,
撳(Qin) - Pressing,
摟(Lou) - Spine lock,
搵(Wen) – Lifting
揣(Chuai) – Overhead,

勾(Gou) - Back sickle,
抱(Bao) - Back raising,
轟(Hong) - Shoving,
裏(Li) - Back inner hook,
擓(Kuai) - Leg bending lift,

A little confused
Could you provide your definition of principle verses technique ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A little confused
Could you provide your definition of principle verses technique ?

- A technique needs many principles to support it.
- A principal can support many techniques.

For example, "hip throw" is a technique. But "hip throw" may need the following principles to support it:

- under hook
- pulling hand

Also, principle "under hook" can support techniques such as:

- hip throw
- leg block
- leg twist
- legt lift
- ...

 

[Xue Sheng]

David Chin, a noted Hop Gar master, presented a lecture at the 1998 Guang Ping Association. He talked about timing and movements when used in real time, demonstrating the "snake creeps down" technique and its practical application. He contrasted technique-based approaches with principle-based ones, emphasizing that Taiji is principle-based rather than technique-based.

The number of people I have seen do white crane spreads its wings wrong and then say it doesn't work...is amazing.... do it right it works great.... Snake creeps down, I never thought of it as anything but show... and it is not in the traditional form as it comes from Tung Ying Chieh

 

[windwalker099]

The number of people I have seen do white crane spreads its wings wrong and then say it doesn't work...is amazing.... do it right it works great.... Snake creeps down, I never thought of it as anything but show... and it is not in the traditional form as it comes from Tung Ying Chieh

Did you watch the video ?

This movement is not snake creeps down ?

My familiarity with a style comes from Hawaii...from those who learned directly from Master Tung HuLing .

 

[Xue Sheng]

Did you watch the video ?

Not much of it, it is over an hour long, I had no desire to spend over an hour watching it, sorry.... not really commenting on the video all that much, just adding a comment and my opinion

 

[windwalker099]

Not much of it, it is over an hour long, I had no desire to spend over an hour watching it, sorry..

Understand,

Was referring to the starting point of clip that I had posted..where it was discussed.

David Chin, a master of hop gar, also learned Guang Ping Tai Chi
under Grandmaster Kuo Lien Ying. Was very usage oriented...in his practice.

 

[Same Trick]

.... Snake creeps down, I never thought of it as anything but show... and it is not in the traditional form as it comes from Tung Ying Chieh

? Tungs Yang-TJQ doesn’t have SCD ?
Pubu is one of the basic Long-fist stances

——-
Should ad- the pubu stance in Yang taiji often show front foot pointing forward, in Wu taiji for example front foot point to side

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I had no desire to spend over an hour watching it, sorry....

The moment that he starts to "push", the moment that I stop watching.

Does "Taiji = push" in some people's mind?

 

[Xue Sheng]

? Tungs Yang-TJQ doesn’t have SCD ?
Pubu is one of the basic Long-fist stances

——-
Should ad- the pubu stance in Yang taiji often show front foot pointing forward, in Wu taiji for example front foot point to side

Nope no snake creeps down, has needle at sea bottom (Pull Down - Tsai or Cai)

 

[Xue Sheng]

The moment that he starts to "push", the moment that I stop watching.

Does "Taiji = push" in some people's mind?

Well, push does exist in taijiquan, however not to the extent that most believe it does. It can be very effective if applied properly, but it is far from the only thing Taijiquan does. As far s snake creeps down, IMO, it is mostly for show. Snake creeps down in application? Well, I have seen them demonstrated, but most are not at all realistic. With that said, I have seen that said about many taijiquan postures and my response to most of those it, That's because you are doing it wrong, Snake creeps down is not one of those, it simply is mostly for show, or leg strength training, but that is it.

But the same can be said for other CMA styles. I can give you 3 applications for Xingyiquan Hengquan. 1 of which I am not good at, but I know how it is supposed to work. Problem is that application is what many go for, and they mostly do it wrong. The other 2, most don't even realize exist..... which then gives folks the impression that xingyi is only striking, which is far from the reality of Xingyi

Taiji has the same problem, only 10 times worse....

 

[Same Trick]

Nope no snake creeps down, has needle at sea bottom (Pull Down - Tsai or Cai)

Mmm, the posture there is, it’s just called “low single whip” instead of SCD.

Picture up at the left corner of their website

Forms - T'ai Chi Ch'uan

 

[windwalker099]

Does "Taiji = push" in some people's mind?

There is no push.
pushing as done by most is just pushing....

What people see happening, that might look like a push is an expression of "force"
the mechanics of how it works, what is happening is different, it's not the same..
if some feel it is, not a problem
not here to argue about it...just sharing some experience.

There is long and short force....Long force, allows time for the other person to recover, does not injure them.

Short force depending on how its used tends to break things...not good for practice...

 

[Same Trick]

There is long and short force....Long force, allows time for the other person to recover, does not injure them.

Short force depending on how its used tends to break things...not good for practice...

this prove the problem, if a Taiji player only do push hand exercises as combat preparation and then think being prepared for a ring fight, it most certainly will look as the rumble in Macau ,

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

this prove the problem, if a Taiji player only do push hand exercises as combat preparation and then think being prepared for a ring fight, it most certainly will look as the rumble in Macau ,

Taiji solo form training -> Taiji push hand training -> ???

The last part is missing.

 

[windwalker099]

this prove the problem, if a Taiji player only do push hand exercises as combat preparation and then think being prepared for a ring fight, it most certainly will look as the rumble in Macau ,

Push hands, a training method that has been turned into a competition...
So much so that other aspects are no longer trained with the training focused on the event,,,"push hands "

Good for those who compete in it...not so good for those thinking they'er working on developing a functional skill set outside of it.

In most instances, those who enter the ring are evenly matched.

Even in push hand events...if there is a miss match

One year, a member of Gracie’s family from Brazil visited the park. Respect was exchanged between the two parties and the agreement on the rules were made. After three short rounds of free style pushing, Gracie went home with dirt on his back.”

Chinese martial arts styles developed unique attributes thought to give practitioners an advantage.
This is somewhat different from the Western approach, where competitors often use the same methods or styles in competition.

A matter of cultural perspective:

In the West, fighters are often known by their names rather than by their style or method. In the East, fighters are often known by their style, as the style is thought to give the fighter an advantage.

For some they only represent themselves, with the method they use being secondary
For others, they claim to represent the method, seeking to prove its superiority..

Those who are very competent in the styles, watching in amusement..

 

[isshinryuronin]

it was principle based.
not technique based...

I have never looked at a system in this fashion. While I understand the concept due to your post, it seems that the two should be entwined.

MA principles without technique to express them are useless.
Technique executed without being based on principles will not be effective.