Hybrids for northerners?

[Carol]

Rich's thread about the Prius got me to thinking about hybrid cars.

I'm all for saving gas. I live right in the middle of a shopping mecca so I can (and do) walk to the grocery store, book store, pharmacy, mall and many other places. I'm so glad that reusable shopping bags are in vogue...the are much more suited for a shopper that not only has to walk home, but also heft the consumables to the top of a 3rd floor walkup

The idea of hybrid cars intrigue me. A few of my colleagues drive hybrids. A couple have a Prius, one has a Civic Hybrid. I've been fortunate enough to drive both. I loved the drive, but didn't like the car.

The drive was almost a zen experience. The electric motor is silent so the ride is much quieter. There was no rev/upshift, rev/upshift sounds when I accelerated due to the CVT. Driving around the beautiful New Hampshire countryside in one was a very nice experience.

But as a committed SUV driver, I didn't like the car. As long as I remain in New England, I will not buy a car that doesn't have 4WD/AWD. I didn't like being down low at car level again I was underwhelmed by the traction control when I drove it across gravel roads.

From everything I hear, the Prius is a disappointment in the winter. The fuel mileage is much worse, the gas tank is a "bladder" that actually shrinks in the cold (!!), and the traction control on snowy hills gets a little spooky.

So, if I look around, I see that there are a few hybrid SUVs out there.

Does anyone have experience driving any of them?

How do hybrid SUVs do in winter weather?

Can the cold-weather drop in fuel economy be avoided?

Not in the market at the moment, but I'll be replacing my aging CR-V at some point so...I'm curious.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

http://www.hybridsuv.com/

I have no experience driving an SUV hybrid (or a hybrid at all, for that matter). But here are some you might look at...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Prius for the North

My cousin has had a few hybrid cars here in the foot hills of the Adirondacks and she liked them, but she never had one of the suv types. Because of where I live and the distance I drive everyday in all sorts of weather I to drive an SUV but I get about 23 to 25 on the highway.

My only thoughts about hybrids in the north are the same as a full electric in the north. Winter driving has really got to drain the battery. Running the heater all the time, the difficulty of driving, the used of headlight.

We just got a car and we thought about a hybrid but the extra expense of a hybrid at this point does not make since unless you plan on keeping a car for greater than 5 years. That is by comparing a hybrid model and non-hybrid model of the same car.

 

[JDenver]

There are some hybrids out here where I live, the weather equivalent for you of North Dakota. If they can survive that, they can survive anything.

Plus, I read that Prius thread with some skepticism. For example, if a car is susceptible to sudden independent accelerations, wouldn't they have to recall it?!

 

[Carol]

There are hybrids where I live, too. Including ones that I have driven that I would never buy.

There are also many other vehicles where I live that I would never buy.

Hence, the reasons for the questions.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich's thread about the Prius got me to thinking about hybrid cars.

Thanks Carol. Thinking about Hybrids and asking questions is what everyone should. Do they make sense for the struggling family today, or should they wait for the costs to come down. Lots for ideas, such as the battery manufacturing Carbon Print versus that of the largest 4x4 SUV Carbon Print.

I will do what I can, without giving away secrets, or information not released officially yet.

I'm all for saving gas. I live right in the middle of a shopping mecca so I can (and do) walk to the grocery store, book store, pharmacy, mall and many other places. I'm so glad that reusable shopping bags are in vogue...the are much more suited for a shopper that not only has to walk home, but also heft the consumables to the top of a 3rd floor walkup

I agree saving gas is great. But look at the total cost of the vehicle. This should include service costs. Diesel oil changes and Fuel Filter changes are magnitudes m0roe expensive the gasoline vehicles. The total cost of ownership should be compared as what you pay for the vehicle and for insurance and also the Gas costs. If you pay an extra $100 a month in vehicle payment and have more costs in maintenance and insurance per month over what you would save in gas, then are you really saving money? No you are not. But you are saving gasoline so if you are willing to pay to save then it makes sense.

There is no solution for everyone so each individual needs to review their situation and make their own decisions.

The idea of hybrid cars intrigue me. A few of my colleagues drive hybrids. A couple have a Prius, one has a Civic Hybrid. I've been fortunate enough to drive both. I loved the drive, but didn't like the car.

There are other vehicles that have the CVT transmission and also with the Electric Motors this effect feels the same.

The problem is that physics and mass are involved so vehicle size is restricted in how this operation can be implemented.

The drive was almost a zen experience. The electric motor is silent so the ride is much quieter. There was no rev/upshift, rev/upshift sounds when I accelerated due to the CVT. Driving around the beautiful New Hampshire countryside in one was a very nice experience.

A slow speeds 25 to 30 mph one gt get this effect. If you have to go up hills the engine will be on for torque. This is true of all systems, although some have more electric range then others.

But as a committed SUV driver, I didn't like the car. As long as I remain in New England, I will not buy a car that doesn't have 4WD/AWD. I didn't like being down low at car level again I was underwhelmed by the traction control when I drove it across gravel roads.

The GM System is called 2-Mode Hybrid. This system is in 4x4 and Auto AWD systems in out trucks and large SUV's. TLC or Discovery did a compare of the Hybrid versus the regular GM products versus otehr products. It could tow, there was some limitations, but it could tow boats and campers trailers and such so for general usage it was fine. Although if you were usign a 3/4 or 1 ton dualy today to hual your horse trailer then you might not have an option available. The study in mud showed that the electric motors did great in a nice even pull. The GM System still has their ABS traction as well as Engine traction and the electric systems is now involved for stabilility on the Hyrbids.

** Note even if one of these systems is turned off by the user or nto working the car still funcitons as a normal vehicle without these extra options **

*** I know I have contradicted myself, as Above I said the CVT and electric motor systems are limited in mass restrictions, but here GM has one in large vehicles. Did they buy a new law of Physics? No, they (we) have a different design ****

The GM 2- Mode system is an actual transmission with 4 actual gears and two motors that are used fo electric propulsion and also to assist even in gear state or when the Gas Engine is on as well.

This allows for the vehicle to actual go into an overdrive gear at highway speeds to and not spin the motors at ineffiecient high speeds.

From everything I hear, the Prius is a disappointment in the winter. The fuel mileage is much worse, the gas tank is a "bladder" that actually shrinks in the cold (!!), and the traction control on snowy hills gets a little spooky.

In the winter, unless the vehicle has a aux heater the only source of heat is the engine so gasoline is bruned to heat the cabin and clear the windows. There are laws about temperatures and amount of clearinf of a fogged window in a specific amount of time. This is not my area but, I know it is there as I have worked with this group to optimize the systme to legal requirements, customer satisfaction and marketing.

As to the Bladder, that is for a sealed or pressurized tank system. I think the Gen II Prius has gone away form that, but expect to see more bladders or fully presurized tanks with the Lithium Rechargable Batteries. This is done for EVAP emissions and for those who optimize their driving and minimum the IC (gas) engine usage.

So, if I look around, I see that there are a few hybrid SUVs out there.

Yes, they are there. But as I stated above one has to determine the cost benefit to your personal requirements.

Does anyone have experience driving any of them?

Yes I do. I liked it. I have driven a Tahoe in Rain and Snow and Ice and n gravel and it performed just like my 4x4 Truck as the Hybrid Tahoe was a 4x4.

I have driven the two wheel drive version and it operates teh same as a two wheel drive SUV or Truck.

Of course it (the Hybrid) did get better gas mileage.

How do hybrid SUVs do in winter weather?

I like them. All the benefits of the SUV plus if you drive it like a hybrid you get to improve your fuel economy. If you use the displays to optimize and train your self in driving habits. (* Note these habits also improve the non Hybrids for fuel economy as well *)

Of course as stated there is the heat factor and the emisisons factors as cold weather has more oxygen which requires more fuel to make sure the emissions are proper at the tail pipe.

Can the cold-weather drop in fuel economy be avoided?

Yes and No. No for heating and emissions. But compared to the drop of a similar vehicle one can still see benefit from side to side.


Note: The early Honda Insights had problems in places like Pheonix. The Battery could get so hot they would not allow the system to start. The fix was to leave your windows open to allow the cabin heat to escape.

Not in the market at the moment, but I'll be replacing my aging CR-V at some point so...I'm curious.

Carol and others that know me, contact me if you are in the market for a GM product. As of today, I get 1 supplier discount a month to give away to the general public. This may change depending upon government and or new Board of Directors or ..., . But for those interested, we can do what we can to help.

*** Note: For those who are die hard customers of other companies, this is not me trying to convince you to buy GM. It is me offereing you an option if you are in the market and considering a product of GM. And for the smart people out there, you can always tell your dealership you have access to such a program from a different company and see if they can hook you with a similar program for your loyal brand ownership. ***

 

[Rich Parsons]

There are some hybrids out here where I live, the weather equivalent for you of North Dakota. If they can survive that, they can survive anything.

Plus, I read that Prius thread with some skepticism. For example, if a car is susceptible to sudden independent accelerations, wouldn't they have to recall it?!

For NHTSI (* National Highway Traffic Safety Institute *) to issue a mandatory recall a 4% complaint or reported issue has to be tracked.

At 1% of the volume, they (NHTSI) track it and can issue a recall for safety reasons. This is dependent upon reports and public out cry and concern over safety.

 

[Xue Sheng]

For NHTSI (* National Highway Traffic Safety Institute *) to issue a mandatory recall a 4% complaint or reported issue has to be tracked.

At 1% of the volume, they (NHTSI) track it and can issue a recall for safety reasons. This is dependent upon reports and public out cry and concern over safety.

Also having once worked for a dealership I can tell you there is a thing called a silent recall. The car comes into the shop for some other service or routine service the problem gets fixed and the driver is none the wiser

 

[Rich Parsons]

Also having once worked for a dealership I can tell you there is a thing called a silent recall. The car comes into the shop for some other service or routine service the problem gets fixed and the driver is none the wiser

In California they have a nick name of "Yellow Top" as they place a yellow cone on the top of the vehicle to let people know that it is important to fix and also the customer is waiting, and most likely does not know, as they are only in for an oil change.

That being said, a good dealership will tell you that there is a manufacturer recall or "Silent Recall" as Xue stated and that they could fix it for no cost to the customer at minimal additional time.