Guro Dan Inosanto's curiculum

[ThuNder_FoOt]

I'm currently training at a JKDC gym under Inosanto's system, and I was told that Guro Dan's curiculum contains OJKD as a base to present the JKD concepts to a student (as well as cross-training in other arts). I was just wondering if there were any JKD'ers that have had the opportunity of training both OJKD and JKDC. Could you provide some insight as to the validity of Inosanto's OJKD? Would you say Guro Dan teaches OJKD as a fundamental to the concepts? or is it his personal JKD?

:asian: :asian:

THuNDeR_FoOT
.::FOOT CLAN::.

P.S. please excuse my ignorance.

 

[Cthulhu]

I don't know if they'd call it OJKD...maybe Jun Fan Gung Fu.

Cthulhu

 

[Old Tiger]

Wow...have you opened a can of worms. One that has been opened numerous times before and never closed! Thats ok, at least you are seeking. This is a subject that you could sit and talk for ......weeks about. But as no one has ventured to tackle this for over three hours I will contribute a small two cents.
My original exposure to JKD was "original" JKD. Strong lead forward...bi jong stance etc. etc. Then as I trained with other instructors and those influenced by "concepts" I began to see that there are basically two camps. The OJKD guys are pretty much stuck. They want to preserve what they interpret as "Bruce's JKD". The sad part is that Bruce never wanted to name the system, never wanted it to be static and wanted everyone to develop their own "JKD" which he realized was in itself a contradiction. The concepts guys said yeah, lets take the basics, focus on the concepts and wrap it around each persons individual attributes. Even though Chris Kent is more of an OJKD guy in my opinion, I like his definition of JKD. "The art of the human body in combat." If you leave it at that...I think its enough. I think it is interesting that when the OJKD guys put together their magazine they invited Guro Dan to participate and he declined. He is not a member of their organization. I think he leads by example in that he pursues all arts and styles in his effort to perfect himself and his martial abilities. What he teaches changes and grows as his own knowledge and experience changes and grows. Style with no style, whos limitation is having no limitation. Guro Dan has probably forgotten more than most of us will ever learn. Sounds like you are off to a good start, if that is what you are interested in. Just think about not getting so aesthetic that you lose realistic functionality in combat. I've seen it happen... Don't get locked into that idea that JKD is the "end all" because Bruce would be very disappointed.

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Thank you for the input. Its very much appreciated!!! I realize that it IS a can of worms, but I was hoping to ask in a way that is respectful enough to help me gain a better understanding .

I'm beginning to understand the idea of there being two types of JKD being taught. I previously thought, what I was learning was THE method to developing my own JKD, and that it was the Lee legacy. I suppose my question lies in the WHY . Distinguishing the difference between the fundamentals of JKDC and the OJKD. I mean I understand the process of learning is different, but are the same techniques practiced? Are the fundamentals the same? Why is there distinction drawn between the two? This is where I'm confused.

Hopefully anyone that responds in this thread has enough respect not to bash other styles. This is an honest inquiry for some insight.

:asian: :asian:

THuNdeR_FoOT
.::FOOT CLAN::.

 

[pesilat]

I've never trained formally in JKD at all. But I have trained at many seminars with Dan Inosanto, several with Richard Bustillo, one with Steve Golden. And I've worked with a lot of JKD guys from both camps.

As far as Jun Fan goes, they all do the same thing. And Jun Fan is the core of their personal "JKD." Their personal "JKD" though is different from person to person (as it should be) - even among the "OJKD" people.

But the material taught has looked the same to me across the board. It's Jun Fan.

As far as the "validity of Inosanto's OJKD" - I personally consider "OJKD" and "JKDC" to be misnomers. Just more labels applied to the surface of the issue. I would rephrase it as "validity of Inosanto's Jun Fan" and I would say that there is no question as to its validity. He trained directly with Bruce. His Jun Fan is no more or less valid than Taky Kimura's, Ted Wong, Richard Bustillo, Jesse Glover, and others who trained directly with Bruce Lee.

If you want to talk wallpaper, then Dan's is more "valid" than anyone living except Taky Kimura. They're the only two left who got formal (paper) certification from Bruce to teach. But that doesn't invalidate what Jesse, Ted, and the rest learned from Bruce or their ability and right to share it. What they learned from him is their knowledge to do with as they please, just as Dan's is his.

I'm only peripherally involved with the JKD community and I get so tired of hearing about all the infighting and politics. I think I'd go nuts if I were directly involved in it.

Ah well ... that's my 2 bits.

Mike

 

[arnisador]

I never hear about the politics in JKD class. It doesn't affect me.

 

[Cthulhu]

I know of people who don't want to admit they have JKD training because of the political BS.

Cthulhu

 

[Mormegil]

Well, a basic answer is something like this. Guro Dan's JKDC is of course based on OJKD, but he also has incorporated other arts into it that Sijo Bruce Lee didn't teach.

So if you want to make surface distinctions between the two, in a "style" format (which is of course, contrary to the ideas of JKD), then you can say you will see Muay Thai, Kali and Silat influence in JKDC. Depending on who you go to, you may even see Left lead forward (as it trains you to deal with most people who are left lead).

A "typical" OJKD look will definately have the strong side forward, probably emphasize trapping more, and little or no weapon work.


I think both are valid. I enjoy them both, and study both. I am very lucky to be at a school that teaches both curriculums.

Hope this helps (and hope I got it right).

 

[kroh]

From what I've seen, there are plenty of reputable sources for Jun Fan Gung FU. AS many have already said...That was Bruce's interpretation of fighting. There are many that are training to maintain this system as a martial art.

If we were to keep in line with what everyone has been saying on the subject... Who cares what everyone else is teaching or learning... It's your training and what you do that really matters. Fight/spar ALOT and find out what works for you as you constantly train.

I am also going to agree with one of the above posts... Stay out of the politics involved in this community... They can be overwhelming...

Thanx for the minute...
WalT

 

[Toasty]

Hello all,
Just a quick point - I am pretty sure Guro, actually in this case Sifu Inosanto has never certified anyone in JKD (original or concepts or otherwise).
He does, on the other hand, certify his instructors in Jun Fan Gung Fu.
Like Mike said in another post - JKD the way Sifu Inosanto teaches is more concept based. Although pretty much - if not -always having the "jeet kune" part involved...you know, the whole "intercepting fist thing" that its based on! In as much as Sifu/Guro Dan has continued on the journey that Bruce Lee started for/with him to the best of his abilities and they way he felt Bruce might have gone also.

anyway, this is how I understand it
Rob

p.s. Jun Fan is more or less Wing Chun with some modifications (again as Mike pointed out, most notably western boxing & fencing) with a structure that can be taught. Whereas JKD (the concept idea) leaves more for individual interpretation.

 

[arnisador]

Are there kata in Jun Fan Gung Fu?

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by arnisador
Are there kata in Jun Fan Gung Fu?

I don't know. I know some that do Sil Lum Tao (from Wing Chun), one or more Mook Jong sets, and Chi Sao. But I don't know if any or all of those are standard parts of the Jun Fan curriculum or not.

Mike

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by arnisador
Are there kata in Jun Fan Gung Fu?

Well in the Jun Fan class I attend at the Inosanto Academy, we definately have a few forms.

We do the Mook Yan Jong form, but usually out of sequence. We have it broken down and applications demonstrated. We have 2 kicking forms, but they're more like sequences of kicks. Certain kick and footworks are grouped together and done in sequence. It's not quite as "formy" as Sil Lim Tao or the Mook Yan Jong form.

We also do a hand sequence that one might call a form covering Simultaenous attack and defense. Example is, we do Tan Da left and right, followed by Biu Da left and right etc.

One thing that I wanted to mention. From what I've read, it seems the "Jun Fan" class I attend is more what some may call "OJKD" or "Jun Fan JKD" than Jun Fan Gung Fu. From what I understand, Jun Fan Gung Fu is the modified Wing Chun that Sijo Bruce Lee was using and teaching before his fight with Wong Jak Man. After the fight, he developed a fighting method based on interception, calling it Jeet Kune Do. I don't think he really developed the Philosophy aspect until after his back injury.

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Wow, there is so much terminology for descriptions of the variations of JKD!!! I suppose this is the politics eeryone mentions that is within JKD?

I suppose I still don't understand how there is distinction between the two 'supposed' variations. Imean, if Inosanto learned OJKD with all the other Instructors whom are trying to preserve the art, how can Inosanto's JKD be different? NOt to be biased, but if nothing is 'left out' of Insanto's JKD versus the OJKD, then it sounds to me that Inosanto's JKD may be more complete?? Thats just IMHO.

:asian:

THuNdeR_FoOT
.::FOOT CLAN::.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt
Wow, there is so much terminology for descriptions of the variations of JKD!!! I suppose this is the politics eeryone mentions that is within JKD?

I suppose I still don't understand how there is distinction between the two 'supposed' variations. Imean, if Inosanto learned OJKD with all the other Instructors whom are trying to preserve the art, how can Inosanto's JKD be different? NOt to be biased, but if nothing is 'left out' of Insanto's JKD versus the OJKD, then it sounds to me that Inosanto's JKD may be more complete?? Thats just IMHO.

:asian:

THuNdeR_FoOT
.::FOOT CLAN::.

Here are some links that might help:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ewen/articles.htm

http://sageartsunlimited.com/articles/

At a seminar once, Guro Dan said something to the effect of "There is no 'Original JKD' or 'JKD Concepts.' There is just 'JKD.'"

Mike

 

[Ern-Dog]

I posted this on another forum but it relates to this topic...



I should have been more exact. The structure of Jun Fan must be your base.

Economy of motion, longest weapon to nearest target, SPBKS (chin down, knees bent, elbows in, etc. etc. Sounds almost like a boxing stance. Even Bruce knew this was a better way of starting a student out. The structure of Jun Fan was and still is far better than trad. karate, Aikido, etc.

As far as trapping goes... I'm not even going to touch that one. That dead horse and this one has been kicked way too many times. I will say this. Everyone uses the structure of trapping, everyone. BJJ use trapping, Wing Chun use trapping, Savate uses trapping, Silat uses trapping, Greco uses trapping, etc. etc. I'll admit, classical trapping (ref. point) is hard to pull of on skilled opp's. But spar Francis Fong and tell me trapping doesn't work. More times than not, it's up to the individual.


Take the structure of Jun Fan and grow from it.

Jun Fan and JKD are two sides of the same coin.
I've heard it been said that, "Jun Fan is the car and JKD is the journey."

"I study Aikido, I study jiu-jitsu, I study Karate, I study Tae Kwon Do. I'll put it together and call it Jeet Kune Do. Is it Jeet Kune Do? It's Jeet Kune Do for them. BUT IT IS NOT THE JEET KUNE DO OF BRUCE LEE. The Jeet Kune Do of Bruce Lee has the Jun Fan Gung Fu material in the beginning and then from there they are supposed to grow and expand, that is Jeet Kune Do. And it is different for every individual. So I would say, if you did that; put Karate and Aikido and Tae Kwon Do and maybe wrestling, that could be your Jeet Kune Do, that's correct. But it is not the JKD as devised or created by Bruce Lee. Because when you see he had the Jun Fan which he thought were the basics, important, and then expand and find your own Jeet Kune Do."

- Guro Dan Inosanto

 

[arnisador]

Savate has trapping? Could you give an example?

Your quote from Dan Inosanto reminds me of this thread:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9949

 

[Ern-Dog]

Many examples especially in techniques found in Savate et Lutte Parisienne.

A specific example found in Boxe Francais is the Reverse frontal being used as a way to smack down and/or trap an opp.'s guard. A natural follow up is the fouette medium to the midsection.

There are others. Traps/immobilizations are used a lot when performing the sweeping techniques of Boxe Francais.

 

[bscastro]

I've heard it been said that, "Jun Fan is the car and JKD is the journey."

I found this interesting and I think a clear way to explain things. I think reflecting on my own early experience helped clarify it for me:
1. You start in one art (for myself it was TKD) and train hard, earn black belt, etc. continue training.
2. My parents told me about Kali and Filipino martial arts in general, so I started training in that, seeing that there were aspects in which it seemed more "efficient" than TKD. So I was cross-training. There were a few techniques/concepts I liked from both, so I kept training in both. I also realized I was still very new at this, so I kept trying to learn.
3. A few years of this goes by...in the mean time I meet a bunch of people from different arts, Wing Chun, Muay Thai, several styles of kung fu, and I begin to train/spar with them in college. In the meantime, I meet another Kali instructor when I moved and start training with him. I found through these experiences that certain ways of doing things were even better than what I had been doing...e.g. I adapted my TKD round kick to more of a muay thai kick (particularly after holding the thai pads against an MT guy).
4. It's been 3-4 years of training and I meet a wrestler and foolishly talk about how wrestlers can't do any grappling because of my stand-up skill. He then proceeds to execute a double-leg and have me whimpering in a scarf hold until I tell him that he's made his point. At this point in my journey I didn't take up grappling, but I worked out with him to teach me how to sprawl and avoid certain takedowns.

That was about 5 years ago.

In any case, I don't want to bore everyone with the full chronology up to the present, but the point is that we all are trying to find ways to perfect our art. In my example, as I was exposed to more "problems" I had to keep finding solutions instead of just saying, "well, that's not my art." It wasn't just about cross-training, although cross-training was part of the process. It involved experimenting with different training partners while still continuing to train in my base art(s) or finding new instructors through life events (college, moving, differen jobs, etc). Eventually, we realize that actual perfection is impossible (there's always a way to improve) and that the discovery and process (the journey) becomes the essense of what we are doing. That is my interpretation of "JKD."

Best regards,
Bryan

 

[Troy Ostapiw/Canada]

O/JKD or Jun Fan JKD?Keep in mind Bruce Lee"s training continued to evolve over the years right up to the time of his death. There for each individual that studied with Bruce would have different peices of the puzzle, free to do with as they pleased. I see nothing wrong with keeping bruce's teachings alive and preserving them, but a person must continue to grow, and train. One must experiment and go beyond their base art. Jkd will be different for each individual, depending on experience, size ect. In the end, it will be your personal expression of the art............lables are just a form of separation. Keep in mind many have earned great profit off of the name Bruce Lee and JKD. Find your personal expression of JKD.

Less talk......More training

Just one man's opinion