Good Stuff-Think This and Train

[Si-Je]

75
When taxes are too high,
people go hungry.
When the government is too intrusive,
people lose their spirit.

The more prohibitions you have,
the less virtuous people will be.
The more weapons you have,
the less secure people will be.
The more subsidies you have,
the less self-reliant people will be.
Therefore the Master says:
I let go of the law,
and people become honest.


72

When they lose their sense of awe,
people turn to religion.
When they no longer trust themselves,
they begin to depend upon authority.
Therefore the Master steps back
so that people won't be confused.
He teaches without a teaching,
so that people will have nothing to learn.
Act for the people's benefit.
Trust them; leave them alone. (Lao-Tzu)
80
If a country is governed wisely,
its inhabitants will be content.
They enjoy the labor of their hands
and don't waste time inventing
labor-saving machines.
Since they dearly love their homes,
they aren't interested in travel.
There may be a few wagons and boats,
but these don't go anywhere.
There may be an arsenal of weapons,
but nobody ever uses them.
People enjoy their food,
take pleasure in being with their families,
spend weekends working in their gardens,
delight in the doings of the neighborhood.
And even though the next country is so close
that people can hear its roosters crowing and its dogs barking,
they are content to die of old age
without ever having gone to see it. (Lao-Tzu)

Just another good couple of thoughts.
Love this stuff. Although I have a long way to being able to follow it. As a martial artist, all should know some of philosophy. Even the Greek warriors were students of philosophy.

DELETE ME!!!

 

[Sukerkin]

Some pearls of wisdom there indeed. I can't agree with this one tho':

"They enjoy the labor of their hands
and don't waste time inventing
labor-saving machines.
Since they dearly love their homes,
they aren't interested in travel."

To behave so induces stagnation and it sounds ever-so-much like an apologists spin on oppressive Communism or Feudalism i.e. make sure the peasants don't get any ideas above their station.

As an aside by the way (nothing to do with your thread Si-je, so my apologies) that is one trait about American's that I absolutely love unreservedly i.e. you all seem have ideas above 'your station'. That drive to advance and improve your lot is entirely admirable :bows:.

 

[oaktree]

Maybe this translation of 80 is a better "feel" The highlighted is my thoughts of what is being said.

The country must be small there must be not much people in the country

To many people makes it harder to govern. When there is problems in governing the people are not treated fair when the people are not treated fair they revolt.

So there are lots of precious bowls and weapons but people dont need them

People are content with what they have and do not need more than what they are given. They are content with how everything is.

The citizens value their life and they dont want to leave the country

Because they live in such a utopia they have no reason to venture off because they have found the greatest place to be.

here is no carts or ships because people dont want to go anywhere and have no desire

Again people have no desire to leave utopia content with the way things are they simply enjoy their lives.

There are lots of weapons but there is no space to place them

I think this is about no war if there is no more war no one uses any more weapons.

People use the old way, making strings, to memorize things
people enjoy their food
People like how they dress and the clothes
People are satisfied of their house and living quality

People are connected with their roots and customs. They enjoy the food they harvest and catch. They enjoy how they dress and content with being as they are.
Because they are govern good they are satisfied in their homes and life.

people like their own custom

This I think is speaking about Confucious and the rites.

The next country is very close to this country. They can even hear the sound of the chickens and the barking of dogs from the other country

I think he is refering to other kingdoms like Chou. If each takes care of its fairs and minds their business creating their own utopia and content with this then no need to conquer other nations. Recall this was in the time of the warring states.

but even till the day they die
they never see and know the people from the other country
they never date them

They never notice them because each is content with their own affairs. I think another way is to see that both outsider of their country and countrymen both content that they blend easily with each others state so they never notice someone from another country.

小 国 寡 民 。
使 有 什 伯 之 器 而 不 用 ﹔
使 民 重 死 而 不 远 徙 。
虽 有 舟 舆 ， 无 所 乘 之 ，
虽 有 甲 兵 ， 无 所 陈 之 。
使 民 复 结 绳 而 用 之 。
　 　甘 其 食 ， 美 其 服 ， 安 其 居 ， 乐 其 俗 。
邻 国 相 望 ， 鸡 犬 之 声 相 闻 ，
民 至 老 死 ， 不 相 往 来

Here is the text of Chapater 80 I used.

 

[mograph]

Because they live in such a utopia they have no reason to venture off because they have found the greatest place to be.

... and that place can be found inside ourselves.

If you take someone who is truly happy inside, would giving him riches and power make him happier? If not, then what objective value do those gifts have?

 

[oaktree]

... and that place can be found inside ourselves.

If you take someone who is truly happy inside, would giving him riches and power make him happier? If not, then what objective value do those gifts have?

You are correct concerning this like the Lotus flower which grows in muddy water.
This chapter is dealing with governing of a nation. The period was during the warring state period and this was Lao Zi ideal structure of what governing is or to be.Or at least I think he was trying to get at.

It is possible I should have mentioned that because they are content with how things are and within themselves both in harmony with the Dao/Tao. My commentary was what I think he was trying to get at but I thank you for your insight into other possible things I may have missed or not expressed in a better manner.

I do hope though, my interpertation is better than number 80 that Si je presented.

 

[Seeker]

I've always liked this particular text.

The Art of Worldly Wisdom
Baltasar Gracian

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/vortex/401/library/aoww/aoww.htm

Gracian was a Jesuit, of all things.
This text was at one time guarded by upper society, the erudite as the secrets that separated them from the lower classes.

009. Avoid the defects of your country.
Water shares the good and bad qualities of the beds through which is runs; people share those of the region where they are born. Some owe more than others to their mother country or city, for they were born under favorable skies. No country, not even the most refined, has ever escaped some innate defect or other, and these weaknesses are seized on by neighboring countries as defense or consolation. It is a triumph to correct, or at least dissimulate, such national faults. By doing so, you will be revered as unique among your people; for what is least expected is most valued. Other defects are caused by one's lineage, condition, occupation, and by the times. If all these defects come together in one person, and no care is taken to foresee and correct them, they produce an intolerable monster.

011. Associate with those you can learn from.
Let friendly relations be a school of erudition, and conversation, refined teaching. Make your friends your teachers and blend the usefulness of learning with the pleasure of conversation. Enjoy the company of people of understanding. What you say will be rewarded with applause; what you hear, with learning. What draws us to others, ordinarily, is our own interest, and here that interest is ennobled. The prudent frequent the homes of courtly heroes : theaters of heroism, not palaces of vanity. Some are renowned for their learning and good judgment : oracles of all greatness through example and friendship. Those who accompany them form a courtly academy of gallant discretion and wisdom.

017. Keep changing your style of doing things.
Vary your methods. This will confuse people, especially your rivals, and awaken their curiosity and attention. If you always act on your first intention, others will foresee it and thwart it. It is easy to kill the bird that flies in a straight line, but not one that changes its line of flight. Don't always act on your second intention either; do something twice, and others will discover the ruse. Malice is ready to pounce on you; you need a good deal of subtlety to outwit it. The consummate player never moves the piece his opponent expects him to, and, less still, the piece he wants him to move.

And anything by the Stoics, Epictetus, Seneca and Marcus Aurelius is a good read too.
I've been practicing stoicism for awhile, it has made for a better life for me. The core concepts have been compared to Buddhism but considered more in line with Westerners than the latter.

My two pennies.

 

[Si-Je]

It seems that alot of these passages speak of a "utopia", oaktree. But I often think of what he's saying is more like:
If the people have the major basic needs easily provided for, like food, shelter/home, clothing, education (if desired), medical and all the basic "creature comforts" then they are less likely to become angry, cruel and discontented.

When a governor makes basic life more difficult than it has to be that government creates the criminials, terrorists, revolutionaries and other social tribulation that afflicts a nation that is governed by takers and oppressors.

75

When taxes are too high,
people go hungry.
When the government is too intrusive,
people lose their spirit.

Act for the people's benefit.
Trust them; leave them alone.

Ch.57

The more prohibitions you have,
the less virtuous people will be.
The more weapons you have,
the less secure people will be.
The more subsidies you have,
the less self-reliant people will be.

58

If a country is governed with tolerance,
the people are comfortable and honest.
If a country is governed with repression,
the people are depressed and crafty.

When the will to power is in charge,
the higher the ideals, the lower the results.
Try to make people happy,
and you lay the groundwork for misery.
Try to make people moral,
and you lay the groundwork for vice.

46

When a country is in harmony with the Tao,
the factories make trucks and tractors.
When a country goes counter to the Tao,
warheads are stockpiled outside the cities.

There is no greater illusion than fear,
no greater wrong than preparing to defend yourself,
no greater misfortune than having an enemy.

Whoever can see through all fear
will always be safe.

 

[oaktree]

Hi Si je

My interest was to clarify for Sukerkin. I worked on translating that piece as well as gave my commentary to try direct away from the communist metaphor that Sukerkin saw in the one you presented.

I think my translating and commentary may not be as accurate as I hope but I know they are better than Stephen Mitchell who made quite alot of money off his work which is based off the work of other english translations.

Anyway, thank you for sharing Mr.Mitchell translation.

 

[Si-Je]

Thank you for translating. Being an English speaking person I really cannot do that. Not into the communist view of the Tao (didn't know that there was one)

I do really like your input on the philosophy of it.
We just moved so I'm still looking for my Tao Book, the chapters I posted were from the web and their just very different than what's written in my book at home.

This book my mom got when she was in college (about 40+ years ago) so I'm not sure if the translation is more accurate from that book than whats online (probably) or if I'm just more comfortable with it. I've read that book frequently since I was about 10 or 12 years old.
Good stuff. Always seemed to make the chaos of life seem, well natural.

Honestly, I'm a ****** sage and a bad taoist. I lose my temper, try to change the world (even if I think it's for the better) and try to hard to be a good "man".

As my Tao book says: (and I'm paraphrasing until I find it again)

"A man who tries to be a good man is a fool.
A good man is just a man."
"Action without Doing and yet the Do'er alone learns."

Ah... The paradox of philosophy! love it!

Good concepts to use with training and applying Wing Chun too. "be like the nature of water." (no, not origionally Bruce Lee.)

Man, I really need to dig that book out of whatever box I packed it in. lol!

 

[oaktree]

Hi Si jie

Not into the communist view of the Tao (didn't know that there was one)

I really do not know if there ever was one in Chinese that weaved the words with communist metaphors or if English translated ones during that period translated it with a communist undertone.

From my understanding most English adaptations were using Arthur Waley 1934 and James Legge 1891 Mr.Legge writing is very crude translating but thats another story.

I do really like your input on the philosophy of it.
We just moved so I'm still looking for my Tao Book, the chapters I posted were from the web and their just very different than what's written in my book at home.

Thank you. I would really have to look at other translations in english and chinese to see what others got and compare to try to get a better fit.
But there are so many translations that another one is not needed since there are some good ones now.

This book my mom got when she was in college (about 40+ years ago) so I'm not sure if the translation is more accurate from that book than whats online (probably) or if I'm just more comfortable with it. I've read that book frequently since I was about 10 or 12 years old.
Good stuff. Always seemed to make the chaos of life seem, well natural.

I don't know how accurate your mom's translation is because I do not know the author.
I think we will never have a complete 100% accurate translation just within the last 30 years or so with the discovery of the mawangdui and within the last 10 years or so the guodian text which reverses the order and adds more text.

Honestly, I'm a ****** sage and a bad taoist. I lose my temper, try to change the world (even if I think it's for the better) and try to hard to be a good "man".

If it is to hard to be a good man better to just be a good woman.

 

[Tez3]

Hi Si jie


I really do not know if there ever was one in Chinese that weaved the words with communist metaphors or if English translated ones during that period translated it with a communist undertone.

From my understanding most English adaptations were using Arthur Waley 1934 and James Legge 1891 Mr.Legge writing is very crude translating but thats another story.


Thank you. I would really have to look at other translations in english and chinese to see what others got and compare to try to get a better fit.
But there are so many translations that another one is not needed since there are some good ones now.



I don't know how accurate your mom's translation is because I do not know the author.
I think we will never have a complete 100% accurate translation just within the last 30 years or so with the discovery of the mawangdui and within the last 10 years or so the guodian text which reverses the order and adds more text.



If it is to hard to be a good man better to just be a good woman.[/quote]


Sometimes it's better to be a bad woman :rofl: