Full Contact No Armor Event!

[Sun_Helmet]

1. No it wasn't the purpose but the purpose was suppose to show/prove what did work in real fight time...I think that word 'fight' would indicate half of the 'fight or flight' idea. So, not acknowledging or accounting for its affect in reality on a fighter's performance and only focusing on getting techniques off isn't very real to me.

Work modular... take what you learn from the 'fight' data and then add it to the other scenarios or training drills. If one doesn't have the correct responses in the fight section of their training, by lumping it in on the broader scenarios - it will dilute the necessary skills one has to learn.

2. As I said, as well as the Prosecutor, if an event is on the up and up, with no alterior motives (advertising, promotion, abuse, legitious/civil liability risks) then I shouldn't get dodges and have to go behind close doors for more info. Bob made a good point along the same lines with the picture/attendance issue. Either say it out right or don't say it at all.

Ask your prosecutor friend if he would NOT call the direct contact if he was given/encouraged the opportunity to.

3. It very well might, but since all you say to my questions is "We had it covered" and "your assuming"...how can I know anything. Again, either say it out right or don't even bring it up.

Because YOU do NOT have to KNOW anything. You weren't part of the training.

5. ... Great, you had people with medical training there because they were part of your organization, but if you had people hitting each other with sticks in the head and didn't have EMT (meaning on duty with an ambulance and response equiptment) there, that is pretty irresponsible to me. Again you 'answer' with information, but no real structure or details.

We had it MORE than covered. Next.

This is my last public post on this (for real this time). Ultimately, I think the marketing/Public Relations strategy of being secretive but 'open' leaves too many people with questions about motives (whether training or advertising) and responsibility of practice.

Outside people will have questions. Only the REAL participants matter. Our motives are not questioned by those in the know. That's all that matters.

I know I am saying it again (but gee isn't that what having a consistent stance is all about?), if it was 'legit' and there was no reason to be 'closed door' other than to create this aura of mystery then simply answering questions about attendance and results with "20" or what ever would be a great way to avoid that impression.

I know... false premise.

okay... we had 20. See how moot that question is?

I don't see Blauer/Wagner/MacYoung types who are of the tactical schools of martial arts doing the 'secret society' thing in their approach. It is all in the open and upfront. They are very well respected and 'contracted' by LEO/Military as well as civilian types - and I imagine because they don't create the mystery around themselves they seem a hell of a lot more accessable than the "Beeatches come to me" approach to advertising.

Great for them. The more the merrier. I recommend anyone who wants to seek them out to train with them. Sayoc Kali does not try to market AGAINST any one/style/system. We don't consider anyone teaching FMA our competition. It's a huge world.

We LIVE the FMA and to pit one against the other as you just did, is just divide and conquer mentality. That's a lose / lose situation. Force teaming your POV with others doesn't concern us.

Sayoc Kali does VERY VERY well with our methods.

If you want to continue this in PM that would be fine with me. I have explained what my 'positive goals' were. If they were in contrast to promoting or stroking the Sayoc ego, oh well. I still haven't seen anything that convinces me that this was anything other than a 'fight club' event (btw, the philosophical justification for the fight club in the book/movie was to 'gain experience' through 'fighting' and discovering who you were in strife - much like you are saying your stick fighting will validate technique through reality) designed to promote another DVD.

Since you have NOT seen the material, I suppose you would agree that this is YOUR assumption . I, who have seen the material would say for a FACT that it was a false premise.

Tyler from FIGHT CLUB :"The first rule of fight club is, you do not talk about fight club. The second rule of fight club is, you do not talk about fight club. The third rule of fight club, someone yells stop, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. The fourth rule: only two guys to a fight. The fifth rule, only one fight at a time fellas. The sixth rule: no shirts, no shoes. The seventh rule, fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule, if this is your first night at fight club, you have to fight.")

Therefore by POSTING our event on a public forum (which now has OVER 2000 hits!) AUTOMATICALLY removes the 'Fight Club' connotation.

By giving a DIRECT contact on selfsame PUBLIC forum, REMOVES the 'Fight Club' connotation.

By FILMING and DISTRIBUTING some footage of said event, REMOVES the fight club connotaion.

Knock Knock... FALSE PREMISE!

--Rafael--

 

[Cruentus]

Before this thread gets locked with the key swallowed...

Mr. Billings, thanks for the positive comments. I do try (don't always succeed, but I try... )

Rapheal, thanks for answering my questions again. I believe I understand. Also, it's always rare but good when someone knows what my handle means. :ultracool

Thanks,

Paul

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

First off I would like to say that it great the members of the Sayoc Kali group are represented here on MT and are participating on the forum. I have noticed that Tuhon Tom has just signed up and I’m looking forward to his input. Now on with the thread;

First of all I really don’t have a problem with how you choose to train. When I was younger I would participate in many different types of contact weapon sparring with no safety equipment. We would use staves, nunchaku, sai & on the assorted weapons. I was young, inexperienced and crazy! I learned a couple of things quickly;

• Be first!
• Be fast!
• Be accurate!
• DON’T GET HIT!!!!!

There were a lot of good things that I learned, but some negative things did occur;

• I spent less time training so my injuries could heal.
• I lost some of my training partners do to the type of training.

What I decided was that I would train that way less and only with like minded individuals. This way I could attract more people to the art and have a hardcore program for the more serious. I was at the 88’ Michigan Modern Arnis summer camp with Jeff Leader and we got bored waiting for the session to begin so we started to free start. During the match Jeff left a very interesting welt mark on my forearm. I thought to myself “next time I’ll block that one.” People around us thought that we were crazy. After which we decided not to do this in public view so people weren’t intimidated by what we were doing.

If people want to train this way I think it should be done in closed door sessions. We as FMAers are ambassadors for our arts. We need to try to attract people to our systems and not scare them away. This is why Prof Remy A. Presas formed Modern Arnis. People in the P.I. were leaving the FMAs and going into Japanese karate. Why? Because people needed to be able to go to work the next day! Prof was responsible for rejuvenating the interest in their national art. He even received a commendation for the Filipino government for his achievements.

What worries me with promoting an event link this is that it may do harm than good! If this was truly to benefit the FMA community it may have been best to keep it quite and collect the intel for future work. Instead it may be perceived as a chest beating, banner waiving self promotional gimmick. I think this may end up as a black eye for all of our people. Now I’m not trying to trash talk you. What I’m trying to say is that people may not perceive this the way it was meant.

In the written form of communication I don’t always get my point across well. I’m mildly dyslexic and it hampers my communication. I prefer face to face conversations. If you’re ever out my way I would be more than happy to go out for a cup of coffee or something stronger to discuss different ideas. Seeing that you live out of my area feel free to call me (716-675-0899).

Respectfully yours, :asian:

 

[Tgace]

Well Said...
:asian:

 

[Sun_Helmet]

First off I would like to say that it great the members of the Sayoc Kali group are represented here on MT and are participating on the forum.

Thanks Mr. Hartman. I've been a member for awhile now but have only contributed on historical threads. If anyone thought this thread was heated, they should venture to the debates I've had with some Western Martial Arts experts who thought the Filipinos were conquered by the Toledo Blade.

If people want to train this way I think it should be done in closed door sessions. We as FMAers are ambassadors for our arts. We need to try to attract people to our systems and not scare them away.

This was the first open invite in thirty years of doing such training in Sayoc. When we first designed the invite, we felt that only those like minded individuals would respond. In the one on one interviews, we could determine if the individuals had prior training and would understand how the event was designed.

In the past, we've done training that would isolate other aspects of stick work, we felt there was a large vacuum of stick grappling material available for FMA which was taught by FMAs. As you stated the Japanese arts have books on this material in bookstores, there's bits here and there from FMAs but not available to the general public. There's material by the great Gene Lebell as well. However, nothing focusing entirely on the stick grappling and why stick grappling is an often ignored subject in the context of FMA. As ambassadors to our arts, the Sayocs have been able to show FMA concepts on a large budget Hollywood film (with more in the works), developed curriculum for the military, expanded historical research of Filipino tribal warfare, and now want to spread the word that the stick can also be a great equalizer against grappling or used in grappling mode.

How well the FMA community embraces this opens the doors to the HUGE untapped (pardon the pun) grappling student body that have not seriously studied FMAs.

If one were to surf the net, you can see grappling instructors, even former JKD students stating the 'dead' arts of FMA. As ambassadors of FMA, here is material that speaks their language and SHOWS them the validity of our close range techniques as well as their own grappling material adapted to FMA.

In the history of Filipino tribal warfare, there are documented instances where observers would indicate warriors not merely hacking away at one another, but tying up their opponent and pretty much restraining them to use their edged weapon, like a Kalinga head ax.

What I1m trying to say is that people may not perceive this the way it was meant.

I believe people would choose to perceive anything we do based on their presumptions and background. Since this event is accompanied by instruction and not sold as a PRIDE or NHB entertainment type of material, we know that the positives outweigh the negatives. In fact, from all the forums we have posted only this one solicited so many INITIAL negative responses. We also knew that if we communicated and placed our POV constructively, that many here will see that the last statement that I wrote way back, "primal (snipped) brutal...WE call it training" would be universally understood. We trusted other FMAs such as you to recognize the training for what it was, no matter how much they were steered off by others in the beginning.

If you1re ever out my way I would be more than happy to go out for a cup of coffee or something stronger to discuss different ideas.

Sounds great. You're also invited as a special guest to any Sayoc Kali event we have in the future (seminars, etc.). We've extended such to others in MA in the past and always had great times with them.

Again, I extend my thanks to the board and its members. Further Sayoc related questions can be handled at our site.

Gumagalang,
--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Everyone,

Sorry for my absence from this mess, I only returned last evening from Stockholm.

Man, has this thread become sensitive/flaming or what not! I think we may all need to take a step back and not take ourselves/yourselves so seriously. After all it was only an opportunity to train/fight, not all this political/legal/ego massaging that has been going on.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

 

[GAB]

Hello Everyone,

Sorry for my absence from this mess, I only returned last evening from Stockholm.

Man, has this thread become sensitive/flaming or what not! I think we may all need to take a step back and not take ourselves/yourselves so seriously. After all it was only an opportunity to train/fight, not all this political/legal/ego massaging that has been going on.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

Guro Steve, I will say between your two personalities, you are one not so slick dude...

IMO

Regards, Gary

 

[[email protected]]

Hello GAB,

I hope that is a good thing???(LOL)


Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[ace]

Im Johny come late to this topic.
How Many Fighters came to this Event????

If opponents lost there Stick did they continue to Fight.

How Many Bones were Broken & Did the Tooth Fary loose
alot of cash?????

Was Ground Fighting a factor in any of the Fights.

Sory if These Questions have alredy been asked
But U can Save Me a Ton of Reading I will
be Grateful