Freeing hand-Wing Chun's last movements

[futsaowingchun]

 

[arnisador]

We do some very similar stuff in arnis. But some of the stuff in the middle here looks from this angle like it's low margin of error--not blocking and moving outside. Maybe if I could see it fro another angle I'd feel differently!

 

[Jake104]

I was taught to use it to dissolve that trap towards the end of your video at around 3:29. The outside trapped hand slides down taking opponents balance with it. Then inside hand comes up and turns into a punch. Nowadays the movement is more important to me than the application.

 

[Danny T]

I believe there is much more in this aspect of the form. For one thing SNT is a seed form not only physically but mentally also. I don't subscribe to the thought of wiping someone's grab but that both arms are being used simultaneously. These last movements are the only place in SNT where both arms are being used in movement at the same time yet each is doing something different where as in the beginning both are doing the same thing when used simultaneously. Now why would that be? The application starting around 2:30 is more of what I would look to but there are several other potentials.

 

[Jake104]

I believe there is much more in this aspect of the form. For one thing SNT is a seed form not only physically but mentally also. I don't subscribe to the thought of wiping someone's grab but that both arms are being used simultaneously. These last movements are the only place in SNT where both arms are being used in movement at the same time yet each is doing something different where as in the beginning both are doing the same thing when used simultaneously. Now why would that be? The application starting around 2:30 is more of what I would look to but there are several other potentials.

Nail on the head!

 

[futsaowingchun]

I believe there is much more in this aspect of the form. For one thing SNT is a seed form not only physically but mentally also. I don't subscribe to the thought of wiping someone's grab but that both arms are being used simultaneously. These last movements are the only place in SNT where both arms are being used in movement at the same time yet each is doing something different where as in the beginning both are doing the same thing when used simultaneously. Now why would that be? The application starting around 2:30 is more of what I would look to but there are several other potentials.

There other movements in the SNT where both hands are being used simultaneously. such as the fak sao and gum sao movements.

 

[Danny T]

There other movements in the SNT where both hands are being used simultaneously. such as the fak sao and gum sao movements.

Agreed but again doing the same thing at the same time not one hand doing one thing the the opposite doing something completely different.

 

[Vajramusti]

Agreed but again doing the same thing at the same time not one hand doing one thing the the opposite doing something completely different.

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Interesting... but....

I don't do fut sao wing chun and I have no comment on fut sao interpretaion of teet sao. But to me sil lim tao is full of developmental
principles - section by section.-the teet sao included. .Motions have multiple applications.

 

[Danny T]

Joy, in full agreement with the development principles. All motions have multiple application potential. I just feel at the very end of the form we are shown that movements are specifically different where as in the rest of the form that is not the case (the implication is there) but isn't shown until at this point. I also believe there is a reason for this.

 

[LFJ]

Is the SNT form a collection of "multiple applications/ application potentials" to everyone here?

 

[Vajramusti]

Joy, in full agreement with the development principles. All motions have multiple application potential. I just feel at the very end of the form we are shown that movements are specifically different where as in the rest of the form that is not the case (the implication is there) but isn't shown until at this point. I also believe there is a reason for this.

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FWIW in my perspective-slt- a"little idea"- a nucleus of a vast system- full of key developmental principles.:like good conceptual models-
key ideas have many applications-i.e one -many relationships- as elegantly simple ideas in physics is correlated with the empirical world via engineering.
In slt-- the lower body structure and joints gets coordinated with the upper body structure and joints in ygkym- then gets connected with the hand structure and joints..
In the final teet sao section after developing single and double hand motions controlling different direction- there is the integration of two handed motion with sticking and unsticking.- later to be used in chi sao and dealing with real time opponents in various ways.

 

[Danny T]

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FWIW in my perspective-slt- a"little idea"- a nucleus of a vast system- full of key developmental principles.:like good conceptual models-
key ideas have many applications-i.e one -many relationships- as elegantly simple ideas in physics is correlated with the empirical world via engineering.
In slt-- the lower body structure and joints gets coordinated with the upper body structure and joints in ygkym- then gets connected with the hand structure and joints..
In the final teet sao section after developing single and double hand motions controlling different direction- there is the integration of two handed motion with sticking and unsticking.- later to be used in chi sao and dealing with real time opponents in various ways.

If you don’t understand the ‘little idea’ you never understand the big ideas.


“- a nucleus of a vast system-“

I don’t consider WC a vast system as for as learning the system because of the way it presents the key development principles. I find it vast in the application potentials. There is far more that is implied within the forms than what is obvious.

Agreed on the sticking and un-sticking and the double hand motions (is obvious as far as I’m concerned) but most practitioners I’ve dealt with have not made that connection.

So many never make the transition from practicing forms and drills into understanding what forms and drills teach much less into practical applications vs an opponent.

Your perspective is appreciated.

 

[futsaowingchun]

Agreed but again doing the same thing at the same time not one hand doing one thing the the opposite doing something completely different.

The Fak Sao motions are like the ending motions also.Left and right hand are going in opposite directions.One is is pushing and the other is pulling.same idea as before but applied differently.

 

[Transk53]

Some interesting stuff there.

 

[Danny T]

The Fak Sao motions are like the ending motions also.Left and right hand are going in opposite directions.One is is pushing and the other is pulling.same idea as before but applied differently.

Yes they can be applied differently. There are many different application potentials. Movement is just that movement. Application is what one does with the movement. However, in your reference here the movement is the same. Not one hand/arm doing a movement while the opposite is doing a completely different independent action yet working simultaneously.

The mechanics of the Fak sao is not the same, the muscle groups are not the same, doing a push/pull action from the Fak sao structure would be much weaker and not as efficient.

 

[geezer]

Freeing hand in its various manifestations is present in all WC's empty handed forms. Something similar is in the Bart Cham Dao set as well. In Chum Kiu and Biu Tze it is performed horizontally on centerline, but the energy and concept are the same. One point we need to remember is that offense is your best defense, so of course when your hand is grabbed, your first response is a punch. However, if the grab is very strong and you can't turn your arm up into tan-sau or roll your wrist in huen sau to release your wrist, the downward freeing arm of SNT is still an effective way to clear your opponent's grapple and continue with a punch.

One thing I did not see addressed in the video was following through forward, using the downward cutting hand as an attack to the lower torso. Da sau jik si siu sau. Attacking hand is defending hand. Another way to do this is to flow directly from freeing hand into a double-punch (one fist high and the other below).

Interestingly we were training something very like this in DTE Eskrima yesterday. ...with blades.

 

[futsaowingchun]

yes there are many possibilities and useage of teh freeing hand, I only presented a few. I can always follow up in more detail in the future.

 

[Argus]

Freeing hand in its various manifestations is present in all WC's empty handed forms. Something similar is in the Bart Cham Dao set as well. In Chum Kiu and Biu Tze it is performed horizontally on centerline, but the energy and concept are the same. One point we need to remember is that offense is your best defense, so of course when your hand is grabbed, your first response is a punch. However, if the grab is very strong and you can't turn your arm up into tan-sau or roll your wrist in huen sau to release your wrist, the downward freeing arm of SNT is still an effective way to clear your opponent's grapple and continue with a punch.

Good points. I tend to use this motion more often in a horizontal application in chisau to deal with outward pressure -- for example, if you have made contact outside-to-outside (the situation where you often see pak-da demonstrated), most people will immediately respond with strength and push you off the center. That makes pak-da an unsuitable response, and releasing his energy with a wrong bong isn't a good idea either, so I just replace the hand who's position is compromised and come up through the center.

 

[Danny T]

Freeing hand in its various manifestations is present in all WC's empty handed forms. Something similar is in the Bart Cham Dao set as well. In Chum Kiu and Biu Tze it is performed horizontally on centerline, but the energy and concept are the same. One point we need to remember is that offense is your best defense, so of course when your hand is grabbed, your first response is a punch. However, if the grab is very strong and you can't turn your arm up into tan-sau or roll your wrist in huen sau to release your wrist, the downward freeing arm of SNT is still an effective way to clear your opponent's grapple and continue with a punch.

Yep.
There are many possible application within the movements. The forms are not application specific. We use some specific applications to demonstrate the movement, the energies, and as a impetus for other application potentials. However, there is no one specific application for any movement or position.