Forgiveness and Submission
- Thread starter Makalakumu
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Cruentus
Grandmaster
Right, it is the "if it is asked for" part of it that is a different rendition on forgiveness then conventional Christianity, where you are supposed to forgive regardless of whether or not a person is "sorry" or asks for forgiveness. Then there is the element that you don't have to believe the sincerity of the person asking for forgiveness, and therefore do not have to forgive the person.
So, it's just a bit different then other views. I am not making a judgement on it good or bad, I was just wondering what views Tellner is ascribing too for academic reasons, really...
tellner
Senior Master
Cruentus, as Kacey says it's Judaism. The tradition has it that sins against the Almighty are the easiest. Hashem is generous if you take the proper steps - Stop doing the Bad Thing; realize it was wrong and admit it; try not to do it again; accept the consequences of your action. As far as G-d is concerned it's all good. At that point you've made teshuvah often called "repentance" but literally "return". Wrongs done to your fellow man? Those you have to work out with him by manning up, doing what needs to be done to remove the harm and sincerely asking for his forgiveness. Once you've done that he's obligated to accept what you did in the spirit it was offered and answer with mercy and forbearance.
There's also a good bit of Sufi sensibility here. There are things for G-d says you may take vengeance. But from the mercy and forgiveness are better. A murderer can escape execution if the family of the victim chooses mercy for the sake of the Most High. You're obligated to do good and prevent evil. But you are also supposed to be merciful, generous and understanding of human weakness.
In both the Jewish and Sufi traditions the important thing is that it's part of the process of returning to the Source. That process requires intention. Without the intention on the wrongdoer's part to make good and change his ways forgiveness is meaningless. If the wronged party holds onto his hurt and refuses to take part in the process he harms himself.
There's also a good bit of Sufi sensibility here. There are things for G-d says you may take vengeance. But from the mercy and forgiveness are better. A murderer can escape execution if the family of the victim chooses mercy for the sake of the Most High. You're obligated to do good and prevent evil. But you are also supposed to be merciful, generous and understanding of human weakness.
In both the Jewish and Sufi traditions the important thing is that it's part of the process of returning to the Source. That process requires intention. Without the intention on the wrongdoer's part to make good and change his ways forgiveness is meaningless. If the wronged party holds onto his hurt and refuses to take part in the process he harms himself.
kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
sorry but i forgot to mention that it is a fact that people impose their wills on others in many ways. i think the word is solliciting or coning.-sometimes, things can be so subtle and convoluted that it is hard to tell exactly who was the more imposing in a certain situation... -sometimes i find i cannot come to any logical final statements--but why not just let yourself feel what you feel-i see no reason to deny or repress or even to make things out to be nicer than they are. the best would be total communication and acceptance even with no physical contact or even without sharing the same pleasures of life with the other.
today i had a wild idea, i thought that everyone is using bits of truths for the purpose of hurting each other. i think the hardest kinds of actions to forgive are those which are on purpose and or with harmful intent. again, i think that the mental channels are more suited to doing damage to a person and getting away with it. there is no active niceness police or anything like that- there are certain establishments and bodies that make it their buisiness to influence things from time to time, and there are vigilantes or passerbys who simply act out of instinct or from their heart. for the most part i would say we live in a free world, and i am thankful for that. but what's worse than physical violence even are ways of controlling the mind.
i also believe that it is almost impossible to communicate to someone else so as to hurt them without hurting yourself just the same in some way. at the end of the day, we have only ourselves to be angry at.-
sounds philosophical, but id probably react just as crazy as some people do in an extremely shocking situation. but the attitude of forgiveness and understanding will go a long way in any case, may even diffuse negativity.
it's not the bodies or the ideologies that fight each other and betray each other, it's the people. so that would be a way to really take everything serious and at the same time not take the superficial things that seriously.
so in my opinion, it is better to communicate and fight than to feign forgiveness.
today i had a wild idea, i thought that everyone is using bits of truths for the purpose of hurting each other. i think the hardest kinds of actions to forgive are those which are on purpose and or with harmful intent. again, i think that the mental channels are more suited to doing damage to a person and getting away with it. there is no active niceness police or anything like that- there are certain establishments and bodies that make it their buisiness to influence things from time to time, and there are vigilantes or passerbys who simply act out of instinct or from their heart. for the most part i would say we live in a free world, and i am thankful for that. but what's worse than physical violence even are ways of controlling the mind.
i also believe that it is almost impossible to communicate to someone else so as to hurt them without hurting yourself just the same in some way. at the end of the day, we have only ourselves to be angry at.-
sounds philosophical, but id probably react just as crazy as some people do in an extremely shocking situation. but the attitude of forgiveness and understanding will go a long way in any case, may even diffuse negativity.
it's not the bodies or the ideologies that fight each other and betray each other, it's the people. so that would be a way to really take everything serious and at the same time not take the superficial things that seriously.
so in my opinion, it is better to communicate and fight than to feign forgiveness.
kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
sorry i know it's stupid retorting myself. not that it matters....
conversely.
one could also say that ideologies are at war and all the victims are innocent.
conversely.
one could also say that ideologies are at war and all the victims are innocent.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Awesome, bro. Thanks! I was just wondering for my own interest, as it always interests me to hear about belief systems that are different from my own, to get peoples perspective. From my traditions (Christian and Zen Buddhism) vengence is a no-no; but seeking out someone to stop further injustice is not. So the take is different slightly from what I am used too, which is why it interested me to hear about it.
Thanks again!
:asian:
OP
OP
This has been one of the more informative threads that I've posted on MT. Thank you everyone for your opinions... :asian:
tellner
Senior Master
Cruentus, you might be interested in checking out some of the Christian texts that are being translated into English in the last couple years. Groups like the Nestorians fled persecution in the West but kept their traditions further East. A lot of the writings - many about the 'lost years' - are just making their way back.
Something that might make you nod your head and smile:
Our Silat teacher is as good and committed a Christian as you'll ever want to meet. In a thread long time back there was a discussion of "what do you admire most about your teacher". For me it wasn't his martial arts skills, which are formidable, or his fighting ability, which is frightening. It's the way he and his wife embody real Christian values like faith, charity, kindness and love in taking in stray everything over the years. That includes stray dogs (our first dog 's mother wandered into his garage during class one day and said "Hi! I'm starving. Take care of me."), cats, goats, wounded ducks, horses, at risk teenagers and young couples who need to get their feet on the ground. "What ye do unto the least of these my brethren, ye do also unto me."
He also said a long time ago that anyone who is serious about martial arts needs to take "Buddhism 101" to get his brain working right. He's probably right. But right now I feel downright gods-ridden
Something that might make you nod your head and smile:
Our Silat teacher is as good and committed a Christian as you'll ever want to meet. In a thread long time back there was a discussion of "what do you admire most about your teacher". For me it wasn't his martial arts skills, which are formidable, or his fighting ability, which is frightening. It's the way he and his wife embody real Christian values like faith, charity, kindness and love in taking in stray everything over the years. That includes stray dogs (our first dog 's mother wandered into his garage during class one day and said "Hi! I'm starving. Take care of me."), cats, goats, wounded ducks, horses, at risk teenagers and young couples who need to get their feet on the ground. "What ye do unto the least of these my brethren, ye do also unto me."
He also said a long time ago that anyone who is serious about martial arts needs to take "Buddhism 101" to get his brain working right. He's probably right. But right now I feel downright gods-ridden
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