Effective?

[Black Bear]

A lot of you would say that many martial arts are not combat effective, or that many schools are not teaching it in a way that is effective.

Now suppose I were to go to those schools that are not combat effective, and ask students and teachers there if what they're doing can be used in fighting or in a self-defense situation...

... most, not all of them, but MOST of them, will say yes. In fact, many would not train there at all if they didn't believe it was combat effective.

1) Is what you train effective in combat? How do you know?

2) My opinion, whether you agree with it or not, is that you know it is effective in combat if you can fight with it RIGHT NOW. Of course, you can post your disagreement with me on this under #2. But Question #2 is really, can YOU fight using your art RIGHT NOW? I'm talking about a credible street assault, not "can you KO your 4-year-old child, or tap your neighbour's kitten".

 

[MA-Caver]

Black Bear,
There has been numerous threads/posts based on this particular question/topic. A look in the archives will allow you to see most of these questions answered by a wide variety of MA's here.

You ask if my art is combat effective and how do I know?
It is effective and I know because it has been tested time and time again on the mean streets of large cities I once inhabited. How effective? I'm still here and in one piece and I'm not traumatized by those past events.

The other question is if I can use it right now? Well, yes.
I'm sitting using a public library's computer right now if someone were to come up behind me and either try to attack me or challenge me (like DUH...who would be stupid enough to do THAT? in a public library?? an unknown individual? Purty stupid if you ask me) but anyway using that scenario or more realistic they jump me as I walk away from the building when I'm done here... Will my art be effective and can I use it right now. The answer is yes... and God help them.

:asian:

 

[Black Bear]

Are you kidding? You have to be especially vigilant in libraries!

1) Public libraries are well-known gang hangouts and a location of choice for narcotics transactions.

2) Intoxication must be considered as a precipitating factor in libraries.

3) Libraries contain magazines. It is widely known that 90% of murderers read a magazine within the 90 days prior to their offense.

4) If you type too loud, I bet people get mad.

5) There are people waiting their turn to use the internet. Some of them are probably becoming increasingly agitated as you read this stupid waste of time.

6) That's all I got.

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Black Bear

1) Is what you train effective in combat? How do you know?

Yes. I've used it.

2) But Question #2 is really, can YOU fight using your art RIGHT NOW? I'm talking about a credible street assault, not "can you KO your 4-year-old child, or tap your neighbour's kitten".

Yes. I've used it. It worked.

 

[7starmantis]

Black Bear,
Do you really expect to see a post on here by someone saying, "No, my system is not effective. I couldn't fight my way out of a wet paper bag." ?
I don't think your going to get that response, but I could be wrong. I think people train in what they do because it works for them.
I've used my training several times, and that includes the JKD I trained, and also the kung fu I train in now.

7sm

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Black Bear

1) Is what you train effective in combat? How do you know?

You never know if anything is effective until it is tested, but I have 2 indicators that what I do is effective. The first indicator is my styles have been "road tested" in combat and real life self defense circumstances, even if mostly by people other then myself. A good second indicator is that from a "scholarly" perspective it fits; in other words, it makes sense and lines up with "modern combat science" in terms of what is effective.

2) . But Question #2 is really, can YOU fight using your art RIGHT NOW?

Yes.

 

[Black Bear]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Black Bear,
Do you really expect to see a post on here by someone saying, "No, my system is not effective. I couldn't fight my way out of a wet paper bag." ?
I don't think your going to get that response, but I could be wrong. I think people train in what they do because it works for them.

Well that's exactly the thing. I mean, I'm making allowance that there are some people who have motivations other than self-defense and combat skill for taking a martial art (though I suspect this is the minority--most folks as I've said take martial arts in order to enhance their safety from violence, or increase their combat skill, whether they admit it or not, and in some parts of the martial arts culture they feel as though they have to keep this motivation to themselves; it is socially desirable to say that you have several motivations, chief among them cultural or spiritual ones, then fitness, then fun, and oh, right, self-defense TOO...) Anyway, since (I believe) most folks do it for s-d and to increase c-s, they would only keep doing it if they think it's working for them, or they believe it will work for them down the road.

Yet many of them recognize that many other martial artists are self-deceived in this regard. The question is, do those self-deceived people believe that their fighting ability is enhanced by their training? By definition, yes. So what GOOD REASON is there for anyone to think that they are not among the self-deceived majority?

Most of the people who have posted here said, yeah, they can fight right now, and that's good. To me, that's the only way one knows. Experientially.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Black Bear
A lot of you would say that many martial arts are not combat effective, or that many schools are not teaching it in a way that is effective.

Now suppose I were to go to those schools that are not combat effective, and ask students and teachers there if what they're doing can be used in fighting or in a self-defense situation...

... most, not all of them, but MOST of them, will say yes. In fact, many would not train there at all if they didn't believe it was combat effective.

1) Is what you train effective in combat? How do you know?

2) My opinion, whether you agree with it or not, is that you know it is effective in combat if you can fight with it RIGHT NOW. Of course, you can post your disagreement with me on this under #2. But Question #2 is really, can YOU fight using your art RIGHT NOW? I'm talking about a credible street assault, not "can you KO your 4-year-old child, or tap your neighbour's kitten".

Interesting post. Someone might look at TKD and say, "Yeah, if you tried those fancy high kicks, you'd get killed on the street." As its been said, everybody is different and what works for one person, might not work for the next. So....to answer your original questions.

1- Like Paul said and I agree 100%. Many arts have already been combat tested. In addition to Kenpo, I also do BJJ and Arnis. The FMA have been tested over and over during many death matches. I would think that if something didnt work, well of course the person doing it would have died. As for the BJJ...well, I think that we all know by now, that BJJ is definately a force to be reckoned with on the ground as has beed proven time and again both in fights in the U.S. and Brazil.

2- Yes. I feel comfortable with the knowledge that I have.

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Black Bear
Most of the people who have posted here said, yeah, they can fight right now, and that's good. To me, that's the only way one knows. Experientially.

But then again, by your reasoning, these who have posted could just be some of the self-deceived, correct? So how does one truly know? Having had to use it in a self-defense situation? We can all agree that all SD situations are different right? So what might have worked one time might not work at all the second, third, or fourth time. I think alot of it is subjective, most of those who say certain systems have no SD worth are only saying that from ignorance or lack of exposure to said system.

7sm

 

[Black Bear]

Well no, you're absolutely right. A person could be self-deceived about whether they could do it RIGHT NOW. And I'm not saying that people who answer the question thus, aren't. They could well be. But I still think that that is the route you want to take to answer the effectiveness question.

I mean, even if we ask the better question: HAVE you used it effectively in a fight (or reasonable facsimile) we can't fully trust the answer. Heck, people have a self-serving bias even in their interpretation and selective memory of an event, and of their performance.

I suppose we'd have to stop it at some point before we slip into wholesale solipsism.

What do you think?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Effectively YES!

Executed properly or perfectly 100% of the time No Way!

I have used my training. I have made mistakes. Yet my training has allowed me to survive those mistakes.

 

[Black Bear]

A good system is resilient and robust. Under the fx of adrenaline, a lot of fine motor skills break down. So that's good.

 

[bdparsons]

You may run into two types of folks who legitimately just don't know if their chosen art is effective from personal experience.

1. The individual who has trained and trained yet has never had the occasion to use their trained skills in an actual confrontation.

2. Someone who has just started trainng and just doesn't know enough to try and use what they're learning.

For either of these individuals does this mean the art they are studying is ineffective? Hard to say. I think this is where realistic training methods by the instructor come into play. If the instructor has never been pushed in this area, you may find that they will be reluctant to push their students. Personally, I think you owe it to your students and to yourself to make your training as realistic as possible. Of course, then you run up against the safety issue. So there's the rub. How can you train personally and train your students to be comfortable with the fact that a particular fighting method is effective? I think it comes down to a combination of contact and spontanaeity (sp?).

Then again there's always the effective method screwed up by an ineffective person!

Great topic.

Respects,
Bill Parsons

 

[Black Bear]

That's true. I'm kind of thinking that ideally a good system has processes built-in to it that allow a person to exercise their skill under some resistance and duress, and this would help them to get an idea if they can really do it or not.

 

[Black Bear]

You used the word spontaneity, which I think is so key. I used to use the word "responsiveness" as in each action was responsive to what the other person was doing, as opposed to pre-set, prearranged. A lot of martial artists, martial scientists, and martial athletes have some sense of something that is important in this regard. A fellow by the name of Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com elaborated the idea more excellently than anyone I know, calling it "aliveness". Aliveness is made up of energy, motion, and timing. Aliveness he said is the key to good training that genuinely improves performance. It first teaches you what really works and what doesn't because what doesn't really work breaks down under conditions of aliveness. Second, it trains the person to really apply it. He believes that once people fully understand aliveness, they'll never be fooled again. They'll never have to go to someone else to ask if this art, or this technique, really works.

In terms of safety, I believe that you can do a lot with just a banana cup, mouthguard, and wrestling shoes (well, and gloves or handwraps or whatever, headgear on some things, hockey pants on others). I was avoiding buying wrestling shoes for a long time, and when I got them, the training just felt entirely different. I think if martial artists "discovered" wrestling shoes, there would be a run on the market; they'd all use them avidly.

Beyond that, I'm a believer in impact reduction gear such as FIST's smaller (usually blue) suit, or Tony Blauer's HIGH GEAR. Much firmer, thinner, and more mobile than Redman, they're designed to be used even by students. Bulletman's just too bulky, you can't grapple in them. Grappling in Bulletman suits would look like two aliens trying unsuccessfully to mate.

In general I dislike dipped-foam pads.

Central to safe training is informed consent. Informed consent is not a form you have signed at the beginning. It's an ongoing process where the student has the right to determine the nature and level of their involvement. Good training is like good sex. You have to be sensitive to your partner. Otherwise you may be sighing and grinning in satisfaction afterward, and your bruised partner will be hurt and angry. And she will leave you. You don't want that.

 

[markulous]

It's already been semi-mentioned before but the way I know if it's effective is sparring. Yeah we have gloves, headgear, and a cup on but we still simulate combat pretty effectively. Plus when your Sifu has been in a lot of fights he knows what works and what the average person does. Some of it is common sense too. It's pretty obvious if you aren't that quick of a kicker and you try to kick someone in the head your probably going to get dropped on your ***.

 

[Shinzu]

i would have to say that i am confident in my art, but that does not mean i would be guaranteed to win right? there are many variables in a fight and anything can happen.

what one needs to do is train hard and practice. be confident in your abilities. only you would be albe to answer whether you are getting out what you need from your art. if the answer is no, then perhaps it is time to set aside the "rank" and take into consideration your life investment.

in the past i needed to change dojangs because of this reason. not feeling confident in yourself is a scary thing these days.

 

[kenpo12]

Depend on yourself, not your art!

 

[Black Bear]

kenpo12 has just said a very very very wise thing.