Does Bruce Lee represent Wing Chun?

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NYFIGHTSOURCE

NYFIGHTSOURCE

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Had a guy tell me something about this once, but at this point it is a rumor since I can find no corroborating evidence to back it up. He said during the filming of the Movie "The Big Boss" that Bruce's fame proceeded him and that there were multiple challenges made to him while on set that got in the way of production (and he beat all challengers). And that some of those challenges were on film. However Raymond Chow thought they were a nuisance and of no use to the film so all were left on the cutting room floor and later destroyed.

However, if true, they were destroyed, so there is no proof to back up this rumor

I too have heard the same thing. From the people who know him... they all said to me personally. He was extremely cocky. And had a a bad temper. I heard the same story and that Raymond Chow destroyed the film.

I also heard the following story from two different sources that was present. "Bruce was working with several people. One was a professional boxer. Not a famous one. But someone who boxed. Bruce claimed he could not be hit. He put his hands at his side and told the boxer to punch at him. Bruce slipped, etc... numerous shots. But eventually got clipped. He got so pissed that his hands came out and he really beat the piss out of the boxer. With the boxer on the ground bleeding really bad... Bruce grabbed Dan Inosanto and shoved his face down towards the boxer. Screaming... 'See that Dan. See that. That's violence!!!' Everyone was shocked and stunned and did not dare say a word.

There is a story of Dan Lee getting his glasses shattered and having to go to the ER to get a piece removed from his eye. Again... something out of anger.
 
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Headhunter

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I too have heard the same thing. From the people who know him... they all said to me personally. He was extremely cocky. And had a a bad temper. I heard the same story and that Raymond Chow destroyed the film.

I also heard the following story from two different sources that was present. "Bruce was working with several people. One was a professional boxer. Not a famous one. But someone who boxed. Bruce claimed he could not be hit. He put his hands at his side and told the boxer to punch at him. Bruce slipped, etc... numerous shots. But eventually got clipped. He got so pissed that his hands came out and he really beat the piss out of the boxer. With the boxer on the ground bleeding really bad... Bruce grabbed Dan Inosanto and shoved his face down towards the boxer. Screaming... 'See that Dan. See that. That's violence!!!' Everyone was shocked and stunned and did not dare say a word.

There is a story of Dan Lee getting his glasses shattered and having to go to the ER to get a piece removed from his eye. Again... something out of anger.
Yeah that's another reason I don't worship him. He wasn't a nice guy plain and simple. Pretty much everyone who knew him said he's cocky or said it in a round about way. I also heard he broke dan lees jaw when they were play sparring and dan hit him and he went after him and knocked him down and kept pounding him.

He's not a person I'd ever associate with no matter what his skill was. People also forget the reason he left Hong Kong was because he was involved in street gangs and only the fights with other gangs are reporter but I don't think it'd be a stretch to say he did bad stuff to innocent people to.
 

Xue Sheng

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I too have heard the same thing. From the people who know him... they all said to me personally. He was extremely cocky. And had a a bad temper. I heard the same story and that Raymond Chow destroyed the film.

I also heard the following story from two different sources that was present. "Bruce was working with several people. One was a professional boxer. Not a famous one. But someone who boxed. Bruce claimed he could not be hit. He put his hands at his side and told the boxer to punch at him. Bruce slipped, etc... numerous shots. But eventually got clipped. He got so pissed that his hands came out and he really beat the piss out of the boxer. With the boxer on the ground bleeding really bad... Bruce grabbed Dan Inosanto and shoved his face down towards the boxer. Screaming... 'See that Dan. See that. That's violence!!!' Everyone was shocked and stunned and did not dare say a word.

There is a story of Dan Lee getting his glasses shattered and having to go to the ER to get a piece removed from his eye. Again... something out of anger.

This kind of thing isn't new to Chinese martial arts, heck in Yang family taijiquan Yang Banhou (1837 - 1890) and Yang Shouhou (1862-1930) were reported to hurt their students and there is a rumor that Shouhou may have killed one in a fajin demo. But this is stuff of another thread and is derailing your thread, sorry.
 

Danny T

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Does Bruce Lee represent Wing Chun? No.
When Bruce came to the U.S. he taught Jun Fan Kung Fu (Bruce Lee Kung Fu).
As he developed JKD, his philosophy toward training, practicing, fighting, and his personal expression he wrote "JKD is pak sao and hip".
Many say Bruce moved away from Wing Chun yet it is obvious he retain much of it. I feel it is more he move away from the CHARACTER and EXPRESSION of wing chun.
He did not eliminate the basic principles of Centerline, Central Line, and Mother Line, three important principles that he learned from wing chun. He did not eliminate Immovable Elbow, for without it the structure is at risk.
He did not eliminate Economy of Movement, and the notion of simplicity. That is very much wing chun.
He did not eliminate the pragmatic approach to simplicity which he learned this from wing chun.
He did not eliminate the concept of flowing with the opponent, and not getting stuck, which is the highest standard wing chun's chi sao training. He did not eliminate the power achieved from the elbows. He did not eliminate the vertical fist in either the straight lead or chain punching. The structure of the vertical fist was stronger, and it not only better closed off the centerline, but it was good for jamming, trapping, and disruption when needed. The weakness of course is the boxer who counters with punches over. With the elbow down, a counter may be in the wind. To combat this, he needed to keep his ability to move the body as a unit, and not just the arm. Of course, this came from wing chun. He didn't eliminate "non-intention," as this was the main principle behind his remarkable speed. Bruce's initial movement was undetectable, because of his non-intention which made him so quick. Bruce may not have had the fastest hand speed in the world, but maybe the fastest start speed. Non-intention. He didn't eliminate his structure even though he modified his stance. Whenever Bruce stood around doing anything, he was almost always practicing the hip structure. It was his hip structure that allowed him perform incredible feats of strength. Remember the photograph of Bruce standing with his arms extended under the bar of the Smith Machine. He wasn't just working isometrics on his forearms, arms and shoulders but, in fact, training the hip. It is the basic structure of wing chun. He didn't eliminate his highly developed sensitivity, nor the strength of his tools that were always in tact for handling pressure and the clinch. He didnt eliminate his ability to create handles in his opponents for uprooting and disruption. That came from wing chun. He didn't eliminate the stomping power principle for his kicks, though he did modified and added to them.
He didn't eliminate his tools: tan sao, pak sao, bon sao, that came from wing chun. He didn't eliminate the means of how to regain center, if lost. This too, came from wing chun. He didn't eliminate triangular structures in his stance, nor their mechanical advantages, also from wing chun. He didn't eliminate the principle of jing power, so important for deeper penetration and add power and speed, so importantly stressed in wing chun. He didnt' eliminate his hip structure, even when modifying his stance. It was still there when needed. It was built in. It came from wing chun. He didn't eliminate the fundamentals of body unity, learned from wing chun for delivering his final power or holding and exerting pressure. He didn't eliminate his original concept of timing, learned from wing chun and later developed into added drills and expanded upon. He didn't eliminate the concept of hand before body. That was wing chun. He didn't completely eliminate lin sil dar, simultaneous attack/defense. That was wing chun. He never eliminated the concept of two guns facing, even though he had modified his stance to quarter facing. In this way, he neither weakened his structure nor permitted over swing back. He two guns principle were still in tact and dangerous. Also the modified stance stood a better chance against a grappler. He didn't eliminate the concept of pak sao, which is much more than slapping hand, but how to intercept and/or cut off. Thus, "the way of the intercepting fist.
Bruce represents his arts Jun Fan Gung Fu and his expression of what he learned and how he trained as Jeet Kune Do.
 

Buka

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When I think of Bruce Lee, I think of Jeet Kune Do and Wing Chun. So do a lot of folks I came up through the Arts with. Be that correct in anybody's mind is of no matter, it's just what we think of. And they are really good thoughts, both of Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do.

I never met Bruce Lee. I had planned to, but he died before I got the chance. Several of my teachers trained with him, and a few of my old friends. They spoke highly of him. Wally Jay's wife, Bernice, tells a great story. Wally had a dojo downstairs in his house. Martial artists would come over all the time and downstairs they would go. As she would say, smiling, "Except for that young Bruce Lee". She went on to say that Bruce and Wally would shove the couch aside and train right there in the living room. She opened her purse and took out an old black and white photo of Wally and Bruce, furniture tipped over, pictures crooked on the wall, lamps on their side, rug shoved back to a wall, and the two of them drenched in sweat. Probably the coolest Martial photo I've ever seen.

Never heard about a bad temper from those who trained with him. I think I would have. Was he cocky? Probably. A cocky, strongly opinionated Martial Artist.....not exactly a rare find. Especially around here. :)

But I still think of Jeet Kune Do and Wing Chun when I think of Bruce Lee. All good thoughts.
 

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Does Bruce Lee represent Wing Chun? I was curious what the Wing Chun population thinks.
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He learned a little wing chun.But he is not a rep of my wing chun. He helped draw attention to CMA and to advance martial arts movies.Deserves respect for that.

Jkd groups will differentiate greatly. Some will say Wing Chun was the basis of Bruce's JKD.
Even though there is a high influence of western boxing, fencing principles, savate, etc... depending on
who you talk to they will include little as 3 arts some up to 23.. some even more. Esp. Since Bruce looked at many different styles of martial arts. Some people will say he took from various arts......put them into his Jeet Kune Do. Others will say that it's basically that he looked at various arts to basically learn how he could develop his Jeet Kune Do to beat all other arts. And it was not a collection of parts of styles. So there are a lot of opinions.

One thing is true. Bruce never learned the complete system. And some people say he moved away from Wing Chun. Although his personal work out log shows him training Sil lim tao daily. Some will say that he gave up on Chi Sao cause he couldn't get it to work with Karem. Some JKD people will say he moved away from Wing Chun and forms etc... and went with his own approach. He was done with the "Classical Mess" as he put it.
So I will say that the opinion within the JKD community varies. Many people will say various aspects.
One thing seems pretty evident. He maintained a lot of the Wing Chun Principles

What does the Wing Chun Community say? I have heard many times that people in different families have various opinions in general. Who's lineage is better. How energy is used.
So I am curious.
How does the Wing Chun family look at Bruce Lee? Is he a representation of what Wing Chun is? I have heard people say JKD is a deviation of Wing Chun. Or sometimes...."The Bastard of Wing Chun". What is the thought.?
Bruce Lee never completed the art. Never learned all the forms. He didn't know the dummy form. Only pieces of it. And he ended up producing a JKD version.(Or it's rumor'd that he produced it or it was a Collection of his students that watched him on the dummy that put a form together to organize what Bruce did on the dummy).

Does Bruce represent wing Chun? Or is Ip Man, Ip Ching, Ip Chung, William Chung, etc. better representations of the art?

Just curious....
 

frank raud

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I suppose the question could be, to whom does Bruce Lee represent Wing Chun? To the soccer mom who has no knowledge of any martial art, probably, as he is a recognised martial artist who did "kung fu". To an experienced martial artist? Probably not. Although wing Chun was his base art, he went well beyond its style. Very few people would say GSP was a Kyokushin stylist, even though that was his first art.
 

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I guess I sort of count as part of the WC community, even though it's a secondary art that I've only been studying for a bit over a year.

I would say that Bruce Lee is much less representative of WC than the other names you mentioned. However many people (including many martial artists) are rather taken with celebrities and movie stars. For that reason it seems many WC schools will make a point of mentioning Bruce Lee in their promotional materials.

I second this. I agree with something Guro Dan has said. That without WC we would not have had Bruce Lee, but that is not the same as saying he represents WC. As an example, while Jun Fan Gong Fu is a lot closer to WC than JKD he added enough new elements and changes to the structure etc that JFG alone counts in the eyes of many as its own art. With JKD it moved even further away.

I think wing chun owes much to the exposure granted by Bruce lee.

Yes and no. Inside the Martial Arts world this is indeed the case. Outside however the majority of people I know, when the topic of my Martial Arts comes up and they ask me what I study they say "did you say 'Wang Chun' and do you mean 'Kali Ma'?" (yes the last an Indiana Jones Reference) and "what are Wing Chun and Kali?" They of course know who Bruce Lee was and when I say "well the first Martial Art Bruce Lee studied was Wing Chun when he lived in Hong Kong" and then I name some movies and TV shows where Inosanto Kali is heavily used in the choreography. They then say "oh, I didn't know that."

Note I am not saying that some people who are studying Wing Chun aren't doing so because of Bruce Lees influence when otherwise they would be studying other Martial Arts. I am sure this is true. However you have those outside the community who in my experience are kinda clueless on the issue and then people like me who really never gave it a thought because Bruce had done so much to promote his own teachings vs the Wing Chun he had started with.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I suppose the question could be, to whom does Bruce Lee represent Wing Chun? To the soccer mom who has no knowledge of any martial art, probably, as he is a recognised martial artist who did "kung fu". To an experienced martial artist? Probably not. Although wing Chun was his base art, he went well beyond its style. Very few people would say GSP was a Kyokushin stylist, even though that was his first art.
Actually, I believe GSP may still practice Kyokushin along with his other training. If that's correct, then I would count him as Kyokushin stylist. He is certainly not only a Kyokushin stylist though.
 

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Depends on where you are, I guess. Most people I know. In ma or not, think of Brice lee as a wing chun guy. But, I'm from Seattle, which has a very large Asian population, and also a connection with Bruce lee. So maybe it's different elsewhere.
 

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Does Bruce Lee represent Wing Chun? I was curious what the Wing Chun population thinks.

Jkd groups will differentiate greatly. Some will say Wing Chun was the basis of Bruce's JKD.
Even though there is a high influence of western boxing, fencing principles, savate, etc... depending on
who you talk to they will include little as 3 arts some up to 23.. some even more. Esp. Since Bruce looked at many different styles of martial arts. Some people will say he took from various arts......put them into his Jeet Kune Do. Others will say that it's basically that he looked at various arts to basically learn how he could develop his Jeet Kune Do to beat all other arts. And it was not a collection of parts of styles. So there are a lot of opinions.

One thing is true. Bruce never learned the complete system. And some people say he moved away from Wing Chun. Although his personal work out log shows him training Sil lim tao daily. Some will say that he gave up on Chi Sao cause he couldn't get it to work with Karem. Some JKD people will say he moved away from Wing Chun and forms etc... and went with his own approach. He was done with the "Classical Mess" as he put it.
So I will say that the opinion within the JKD community varies. Many people will say various aspects.
One thing seems pretty evident. He maintained a lot of the Wing Chun Principles

What does the Wing Chun Community say? I have heard many times that people in different families have various opinions in general. Who's lineage is better. How energy is used.
So I am curious.
How does the Wing Chun family look at Bruce Lee? Is he a representation of what Wing Chun is? I have heard people say JKD is a deviation of Wing Chun. Or sometimes...."The Bastard of Wing Chun". What is the thought.?
Bruce Lee never completed the art. Never learned all the forms. He didn't know the dummy form. Only pieces of it. And he ended up producing a JKD version.(Or it's rumor'd that he produced it or it was a Collection of his students that watched him on the dummy that put a form together to organize what Bruce did on the dummy).

Does Bruce represent wing Chun? Or is Ip Man, Ip Ching, Ip Chung, William Chung, etc. better representations of the art?

Just curious....
Yes in one manner Bruce Lee represents Wing Chun, that being from the standpoint that I chose to study Wing Chun because Bruce did. That is part because I just did not know anything more than I like the Bruce Lee I saw in movies, video and in print and I knew he only studied formally with one teacher, Ip Man as it turned out to be, and the only art he studied with a teacher was Wing Chun, so I thought the things Bruce did was 100% Wing Chun. Now after nearly 6 years of Wing Chun study, I realize what Bruce did has some elements of Wing Chun but like other point out, he too has western boxing, fencing, muay thai and other martial arts present in what he performed. Bruce was much like the United States in that he was a human melting pot of martial arts/sciences and philosophies. It was present in JKD, his writing, his interviews, and many other aspects. So does he represent Wing Chun, no not in it's pure sense, but because he was as globally well known and charismatic as Muhammad Ali, his connection to Ip Man and Wing Chun does extend Wing Chun more than any other person including Ip Man dare I say. However since he did not represent pure Wing Chun, then if the question was his representation of "pure or traditional" Wing Chun, then no he does not.
 

wingerjim

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My question is... Does the wing Chun community identify with Bruce. Or do they feel he does not represent Wing Chun? Some people like Headhunter mentioned how people in a Wing Chun School will plaster him all over the walls. Some schools hate him and refuse to say anything good about him.

In the JKD community there are different views. Some like you said totally follow wing chun... some discard it totally. And yeah some people teach the chi sao... trapping... sil lim tao etc... but not really the complete system. They scratch the surface at best. Dan Inosanto will bring in people like Francis Fong for Wing Chun. But Dan also practices coperia(sp?). He also trains BJJ. So Dan is definitely a martial artists that likes to learn many arts. And spent a life time doing it. A lot of his seminars that I have attended has been mainly FMA. And the Ted Wong seminars I went to have no Wing Chun what so ever. So people in the JKD community argue if Bruce's JKD is hugely a foundation of Wing Chun or not. Long long heated discussion there. So I didn't want to open that can of worms again. Been done so many times.

My question is what does most of the people in Wing Chun feel.? Do they identify with Bruce? Do they not?
My small circle of Wing Chun instructors that I work with and are friends have varying opinions. Some love the JKD part of what I do. Some bust on me for JKD. Some even refused to work with me... But again... small circle.... Looking here for a bigger picture of how people feel.
My teacher quotes Bruce but aside from that, he is not discussed other than he was a student of Ip Man. I think Bruce was an amazing MA and I do not think many people could have wiped the floor with him and I am solely a WC student. I think there are a number of reasons for that, but most of all because he had the time, resources, and desire to do so. Anyone that worked 6-8hrs per day on their body development will go places.
 

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