distance

[bribrius]

touched on in a post in the tkd section so it came to mind.


can someone explain distance to me (i grasp the concept of far enough away to not be struck but close enough to strike, but think i am missing some key elements) and what arts rely on (range preferrable) it and to what degree?

 

[David43515]

I think that to some extent all arts and styles rely on distance. Like the OP mentioned there`s the distance where you can hit without being hit (although I think positioning is more key to that than distance). But it also plays a key point in choosing the proper technique. You don`t try to throw a tight left hook when you`re in kicking range even if you`ve got a great punch.

Generally speaking there are 5 basic ranges or distances in unarmed fighting.
1) long range - neither can strike the other w/o moving forward
2) kicking range - just what it sounds like. You can kick but can`t land hand strikes.
3) punching range - where you can strike with most hand techniques
4) trapping range - where you can reach out and try to control your opponant`s arms but don`t really have body-to-body contact. Also called elbow range.
5) grappling range - body-to-body range (throws and wrestling)

Different styles have thier specialties and they may break those ranges down further. For example Bob Orlando (primarily a Kuntao/Silat guy) talks about throwing long,medium, and short range elbows in the trapping range.

Since weapons arts are usually faster paced than empty hand stlyes they tend to judge ranges not just by reach, but also by reaction time. Fencers talk about time of the hand, time of the body and time of the foot. For time of the hand, the distance is close enough that you can strike just by moving your hand. Time of the body means you need to shift weight and bend the front knee to strike. And time of the foot means that you must move the front foot forward to strike. Each one is a bigger movement than the one before it and gives the opponant more opportunity to notice and react before your strike lands. (Or more importantly gives you more time to react to his attack.)

 

[sgtmac_46]

touched on in a post in the tkd section so it came to mind.


can someone explain distance to me (i grasp the concept of far enough away to not be struck but close enough to strike, but think i am missing some key elements) and what arts rely on (range preferrable) it and to what degree?

All combat arts come down to controlling the distance. All physical conflict comes down to controlling the distance.

BJJ and Judo, for example, require closing to grappling range in order to be effective. Arts can be countered by controlling the distance, and not allowing the opponent to get to the range they can control the best.

This goes from individual sport contact, all the way up to warfare. In the Battle of Kursk the German Tiger tanks could hit and destroy the Soviet T-34 from far greater distances than the T-34 could hit the Tigers, and the rounds, at far range, would not penetrate the Tiger armor.

The Soviets overcame this advantage by charging in and fighting the German Tiger and Panther tanks at extreme close ranger, where their guns could penetrate the Tigers armor. One strategy was to actually run the T-34's in to the Tigers to disable them.


Understanding and controlling the range, and using it to your advantage, and your opponents disadvantage, is critical.

 

[jks9199]

Distance and range are inter-related concepts that are dealt with by most martial arts. Your teacher should be able to help you understand how your art addresses distance and control of the range... but some basic ideas follow.

Essentially, you can boil distance down to how much space the weapon has to travel to reach the target. Logistics (stepping, movement, technique choices) drive how you cover that distance. For striking arts, you're generally talking about distances relative to the length of the limb being used to strike. Grappling arts deal with the space you need to control and close off to control the opponent's limbs or center of gravity.

Logistics and the weapon choice also drive the idea of what distance you want between you and your opponent. Again, strikers want to be far enough to see the strikes coming, while grapplers often want to be touching their opponent to feel the movements of their opponent's attacks.

There are two concepts to range: the first is the general labeling of distances, and the second is the simple question of whether or not the attack can successfully be delivered. Different styles label ranges differently; this is the scheme I tend to use:
Very Close: generally, body on body contact, like a lot of wrestling holds
Close: No stepping or shifting is necessary to be able to strike or grab the opponent, but you're not actually touching.
Middle: One to two steps are needed to deliver the strike, but no more.
Long: two or more steps or space-eating leaps are needed to deliver an attack.
Very Long: Several steps if fighing on foot, or implements are needed (like guns) to eat up the distance between you.

In the other concept of range, it's simply: you are either in range to deliver, or out of range to deliver!

 

[WC_lun]

Also understand that space = time. If an opponent has farther to move to achieve what he wants to do, then you have an increased time frame in which act. While range is a part of this, it isn't the whole of it.

 

[Balrog]

Think about reaction time. In a nutshell:

1. The eyes see something and send a message to the brain.
2. The brain identifies it as a threat.
3. The brain selects the best defense against the threat and tells the body to execute it.
4. The body executes it.

For Joe Average, this process takes about 1/2 second from start to finish.

From a standing position, Joe Average can cover about 6 feet in 1/2 second. That's why most discussions of distancing use a "6 feet plus length of weapon" rule of thumb. The more distance, the more time you have to react to your opponent. Learning proper distancing is one of the key elements of martial arts training.

 

[ATC]

From what I see most people even students don't understand proper distance for most techniques. This is mostly for striking arts. Distance in the grappling arts are a bit different and even more complicated, it is not just being in touching range.

Because I box and do TKD and my grappling is limited I will defer to Steve BJJ for distance when it comes to grappling.

Most strikers tend to get or stand to close for their techniques. This is why you see knees into thighs a lot. You will also see knees colliding with knees and knees hitting feet. Many times you see kicks that miss by going past the target as well. Also you will have punches that do no damage as the punch never got extended. I don't know how many times I see a punch that pushes the opponent back. Because the arm was bent at impact by 90 degrees or more, then they extent the arms out pushing not punching the opponent. That is why untrained people can throw 10 or more punches standing toe to toe and miss all of them.

Distance if very hard to teach because people tend to want to be in grabbing distance not striking distance. They also tend to think that the front hand and foot is the closest to the target when that is not really the case. The rear foot and hand are the closest to the target. But it is almost impossible to get people to understand this. Don't believe me? The do the following.

Stand in a classic fighting stance. That is one foot slightly in front of the other on a 45 degree angle. I will start with the feet first as this is simplest to explain. Now from this stance just lift the front foot and and kick in front of you as far as you can without moving your back foot forward. You can pivot the back foot to get as much distance as you can but do not move it forward. Note how far you kicked out.
Now in the same spot in the same stance simple pickup your back foot/leg and kick towards the same target. Do not move your front foot forward but you can pivot on it to reach out as far as you can. Note the how far out you kicked.

If you did this correctly you should have kicked out the longest with your back leg. This is because the foot or leg that you are standing on when you kick is actually your point of origin. So pickup your front leg you lose about 2 feet of distance. Pickup the back leg and kick and you gain about 2 feet of distance. Thats 4 feet in all. 4 feet is rather long but not many kick from that distance without taking a step. The great fighters understand this and start kicks from a range that many think they are safe but are not. That is why they seem so fast. Boy he kicked me from way back their, he must be fast. No, he has timing and distance on his side.

Now for the punch. It is similar but a little different. Again stand in your classic one side forward fighting stance. Now jab out as far as you can with the front hand. Note the distance you reached. In that same spot and same stance punch out with the back hand. When doing both punches turn your hips as much as you can for maximum distance. Again if done correctly you will have almost 6 inches to a foot of greater distance with the rear hand. This again is due to the point of origin of your feet. Because your front foot is closer to the target you greater range punch will be with the rear hand not the front hand.

The concept above in not understood by many as if you put 3 feet between your front foot to your opponent front foot it seems to far to strike but it is not.

I hope this helps because this is the one single thing I try to get across to all my students is distance. When the target is moving away from you don't use your front leg or hand to try and hit it, use your back leg.
This is just one concept pertaining to distance, there are so many more. But understand this one first and the other seem to fall into place.

Forgive any bad typing as I typed this as my brain was thinking it and I know there will be many grammar errors as we tend to think faster than we type. I am to tired to go back and proof read it also.

 

[bribrius]

From what I see most people even students don't understand proper distance for most techniques. This is mostly for striking arts. Distance in the grappling arts are a bit different and even more complicated, it is not just being in touching range.

Because I box and do TKD and my grappling is limited I will defer to Steve BJJ for distance when it comes to grappling.

Most strikers tend to get or stand to close for their techniques. This is why you see knees into thighs a lot. You will also see knees colliding with knees and knees hitting feet. Many times you see kicks that miss by going past the target as well. Also you will have punches that do no damage as the punch never got extended. I don't know how many times I see a punch that pushes the opponent back. Because the arm was bent at impact by 90 degrees or more, then they extent the arms out pushing not punching the opponent. That is why untrained people can throw 10 or more punches standing toe to toe and miss all of them.

Distance if very hard to teach because people tend to want to be in grabbing distance not striking distance. They also tend to think that the front hand and foot is the closest to the target when that is not really the case. The rear foot and hand are the closest to the target. But it is almost impossible to get people to understand this. Don't believe me? The do the following.

Stand in a classic fighting stance. That is one foot slightly in front of the other on a 45 degree angle. I will start with the feet first as this is simplest to explain. Now from this stance just lift the front foot and and kick in front of you as far as you can without moving your back foot forward. You can pivot the back foot to get as much distance as you can but do not move it forward. Note how far you kicked out.
Now in the same spot in the same stance simple pickup your back foot/leg and kick towards the same target. Do not move your front foot forward but you can pivot on it to reach out as far as you can. Note the how far out you kicked.

If you did this correctly you should have kicked out the longest with your back leg. This is because the foot or leg that you are standing on when you kick is actually your point of origin. So pickup your front leg you lose about 2 feet of distance. Pickup the back leg and kick and you gain about 2 feet of distance. Thats 4 feet in all. 4 feet is rather long but not many kick from that distance without taking a step. The great fighters understand this and start kicks from a range that many think they are safe but are not. That is why they seem so fast. Boy he kicked me from way back their, he must be fast. No, he has timing and distance on his side.

Now for the punch. It is similar but a little different. Again stand in your classic one side forward fighting stance. Now jab out as far as you can with the front hand. Note the distance you reached. In that same spot and same stance punch out with the back hand. When doing both punches turn your hips as much as you can for maximum distance. Again if done correctly you will have almost 6 inches to a foot of greater distance with the rear hand. This again is due to the point of origin of your feet. Because your front foot is closer to the target you greater range punch will be with the rear hand not the front hand.

The concept above in not understood by many as if you put 3 feet between your front foot to your opponent front foot it seems to far to strike but it is not.

I hope this helps because this is the one single thing I try to get across to all my students is distance. When the target is moving away from you don't use your front leg or hand to try and hit it, use your back leg.
This is just one concept pertaining to distance, there are so many more. But understand this one first and the other seem to fall into place.

Forgive any bad typing as I typed this as my brain was thinking it and I know there will be many grammar errors as we tend to think faster than we type. I am to tired to go back and proof read it also.

that is similiar to where i am getting myself confused. But it isn't with kicking it is going from kicking range to elbow range single stick. I keep feeling like i am missing something i am forgeting about my triangle and i have one hand sitting idle......Not so much getting in and out but something im not doing on the way in and out....kind of wondering how the other arts are making that transition as well.
same with transitioning back out from one knee. drawing a blank.

great posts. very imformative and thank-you.

 

[ATC]

Ahhh....elbows and knees. Like some have stated above, there are multiple ranges and the elbow and knee can fall into a few of them. Elbow are not long distance but can fall into the very short, short, to medium/middle, range. However the same principles of where your point of origin is still apply. This means that if you are at distance for the elbow but your opponent can and is moving back then your longest reaching weapon is the one towards the rear. However is your opponent is stationary or can't move back then your distance should be one in which either weapon can strike the target. Also if your opponent is moving in on you then your front facing weapon is the better choice, it is the fastest weapon.

A Muay Thai fighter may have better insight and give you more details behind the principles.

 

[Nomad]

If you control the distance, you control the fight, and you win. It's hard to lose a fight if your opponent can't engage, but you can. If your opponent controls the distance, he/she wins. If neither of you does, then it comes down to other factors (size, toughness, speed, technique & luck come to mind, not necessarily in that order!).

Of course, controlling the distance is not as easy as it sounds, and is made much more difficult if you're facing a competent opponent with similar goals.