Differnce between a japanse sword and chinese sword

[Yari]

Hi

Does anybody know what the difference is between cutting with a japanese sword and chinese sword. I don't know anything about the chinese swords, but what I've seen in chinese MA movies.

Are all the chinese swords one handed? And how are they forged? What's the idea on it.

And since I'm here, what about the korean swords?

/Yari

 

[arnisador]

You might also ask on www.swordforum.com or www.bladeforums.com.

 

[YiLiJingLei]

Hi, 'Yari',
The Sword Forum mentioned above is a good reference. What you'll find is that Japanese Swords and forging methods were historically originally imported from China. "Ken" is a Nihongo transliteration of the Mandarin word "Jian", meaing a double-edged long sword. The early Japanese Ken were direct imports from the Spring & Autumn period, then later throughout the Han Dynasty from the Middle Kingdom (or "China", if you will). Originally, Ken/Jian were Bronze, later, Iron, and by the Han Dynasty, wrought steel. Eventually, some different 2-handed sabres (Zhan Dao, Zhan Ma Dao--"Cut-Horse-Sabre") from around the end of the Han Dynasty (Three Kingdoms era)made thier way to Japan via envoys from around 250-300 AD/CE. There were more to come in later imports, and Japanese warriors & smiths finally started producing imitations of thier own by around 500-700 AD/CE (during the Tang Dynasty in China), and the Japanese referred to them as "To", a Japanese transliteration of the Chinese word "Dao", meaning knife, or sabre. The Japanse later used the terms Tachi, Daito, and eventually Katana for thier 2-handed sabres. Thus, a very abbreviated history of the infamous "Samurai Sword". Like most things considered traditional Japanese culture, another example demonstrating it was borrowed and slightly altered from Chinese origin.
Since your question was in regards to use, also consider not just the tools, but also the methods originate in China, as well. An example, Yoshitsune no Minamoto, a famous Japanese hero from 12 Century Japan learned swordsmanship in his youth while held captive in a Buddhist Monastary by the ruling Taira clan. Japanese legends prefer to say Yoshitsune learned swordsmanship & martial arts from Tengu ("Crow-goblins"), but historically, his instructors were more likely to be militant monks from China. This is an important factor in considering martial development in Japan--it followed along with the flow of Buddhism from China to Japan. The old military classics of Japan studied by Samurai youth were Chinese military classics. Early Jujutsu ryu, both in Samurai clans & amoung civilians find thier origin in trade & folks traveling & relocating (for whatever various reasons) between/from China. Even Sumo, the sport that is part of the identity of Japanese culture comes from Chinese Wrestlers a long, long time ago.
Even Karate is a very recent import from China. Originally, some Okinawans studied some martial arts indiginous to Fujian (Fukien) province in south China, from at least as far back as the 16th century, perhaps before. The Japanese only started learning it from the Okinawans within the last 120 years, because the Okinawan Civilians were originally learning it from the Chinese to protect themselves from Japanese invaders. The Characters for Kara-Te originally meant "China-Hand", but Imperialists in Pre-War-Era Japan (1920's) egocentrically changed the characters & meaning to "Empty Hand", thus maintaining the same pronounciation.
So, when you are trying to find the differences between Chinese and Japanese fencing/swordsmanship, consider that the differences in actual usage really aren't that significant, as there are many different methods, depending on the tools used, and many different systems/styles/schools in both Chinese & Japanese swordsmanship. When you get down to the nuts & bolts (strategy & technique), it's still about cutting the opponent down without getting killed yourself. Sure, there are differences in the specifics of how each tool (weapon) is used, but the aim is still the same--survival. Although most any teacher of any system is convinced that thier method is superior, don't get stuck in the packaging of a style, the outer-frame of culture, tradition, and language--the essential meaning & practical principles are really not so different.
So, consider that, & just keep practicing.

 

[Yari]

Thanks Dennis

This was great, I was just curious about the technique. The few demonstrations I've seen with "chinese" swords have had a lot of jab's and straight attacks, were as the japanese don't have that much (they do, but not that much).

Another thing I was thinking about was the forging. Because I had heard the the japanese probably had got there forging techniques from korea. So I thought that maybe there was some differenses between chinese forging techniques and japanese, since that will also define the way the sword would be used.

/Yari

 

[YiLiJingLei]

Hi, Yari,
Thanks for the reply, glad to offer some help. The Korean origin for Japanese forging methods is less likely, as Koryo borrowed alot from Chinese dynasties as well. It might seem likely because Japan & Korea are closer Geographically than China & Japan, but Korean cultural development followed China, as did Japan's. Ancient Korean & Japanese culture is linked in pre-history (as evidenced by linguistics), far before the Iron age.
Your question regarding distinction between Chinese & Japanese swords & swordsmanship is difficult to accurately answer briefly. Technique does differ between the current most popular surviving swordsmanship methods from China & Japan, but bear in mind that method & strategy is partly dependent on the tools (weapons) used. Surviving Japanese swordsmanship schools have developed over several generations in Japan, but the original roots come from China, though direct lineages may be impossible to specifically trace over the course of the last 1,500 years, when the Japanese began using the 2 handed sabre (To/Tachi/Daito/Katana) almost exclusively.
In contrast, the 2 most popular Chinese swords currently in practice are the light, one-handed double-edged straight swords (Jian), and the one-handed "willow-leaf" sabres (Dao, sometimes called "broadswords"); although it is important to bear in mind that the range of different sword designs in Chinese history is incredibly diverse. The diversity of different sword designs pales to the immense diversity of different swordsmanship styles in China, even those still extant.
Even in Japan, with roughly the same design of sword, there are over a hundred different traditional (old) schools of swordsmanship surviving. The Japanese short sabre (Shoto/wakazashi) and great-sabre (No-Dachi) are basically different sizes of the same sword design. The primary function of the 2 handed sabre is its heavy cutting power and deep slashes, intended to sever body parts or open the body cavity, though thrusting is also effective.
The Chinese single handed sabre (Dao) is designed for fast, widely arcing/circular slashing techniques, and allow greater mobility for practical cutting than the heavier 2 handed sabre. The single handed straight sword most popular in Chinese styles for the last few hundred years is a light weapon, not intended for battlefield use, but is primarily a "dueling" sword, where combatants are unarmored. The Jian developed from a heavy, double handed battlefield weapon (very similar to medieval European long swords), but eventually diminished in size to the aristocratic, scholar's weapon common today. It's primary function is thrusting & fast, surgically placed cuts, and requires far more training for effective use than the Dao.
I hope this offers some kind of starting place for the distinctions between Japanese & Chinese swordsmanship. Glad to help someone with common interests.

 

[Yari]

Thank You Dennis

This was great!

Respectfully
Yari

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Yari

This was great!

Yes, this is making for very interesting reading. I've studied iaido and Tai Chi and trying to see the connections between the sword work is making my head hurt!

 

[Samurai]

To give an honest answer...it depends on the style of sword and the user.

I have seen some Chinese swords that are two handed and are used much like a Japanese katana.

I think you are speaking of a Tai Chi Chuan style straight sword and that is used is a jabbing and cutting with the tip manner.

The katana cut uses the entire length of the blade to cut with.

MY Two Cents,
Jeremy Bays

 

[YiLiJingLei]

Hi, Jeremy,
Thanks for the input. The "Tai Chi Sword" you mention is called "Jian" in Mandarin, and it's use is not limited to only Taijiquan swordplay. There are literally hundreds of different schools of Chinese swordsmanship still extant, only a handful of those are considered part of the Taiji family styles. Admittedly, Taiji swordplay styles are probably the most popularly practiced.
Any particular sword, whether Japanese Katana, Chinese Dao, Chinese Jian, Italian Rapier, Norse Longsword, whatever, have different uses for different lengths of the blade, generally broken down into 3 sections. The 3rd closest to the guard & handle is usually not as sharp as the middle section; the closer you get to the handle/guard for any particular sword, the cutting uses more leverage from body turning. The last 3rd of the blade towards the tip is the sharpest, as it performs a majority of the cutting from slashes & thrusts. The back/spine/or flat of the blade is used for deflection--using any portion of the blade to deflect an oncoming strike from another weapon is avoided, so that you don't damage the sword edge, because you want to cut the opponent, not thier weapon. While blocking sword to sword looks neat & dramatic for movies, the most practical methods of real swordsmanship involve evasive footwork & timing for counter strikes; parries with the sword blade are final options to avoid being cut down. Weapon to weapon blocking cause chips in the blade edge, which ruin the cutting ability of a sword.
Just speaking in generalities here, but these generalities are fairly universal, whatever the culture, whatever the sword design, whatever the style of swordsmanship one could reference. I hope this helps clarify. Thanks! :asian:

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by YiLiJingLei


Any particular sword, whether Japanese Katana, Chinese Dao, Chinese Jian, Italian Rapier, Norse Longsword, whatever, have different uses for different lengths of the blade, generally broken down into 3 sections.

I didn't know this about the Norse longsword. I thought it was more of a hack-hack weapon, and not cut. Much more because of the weight. But I've only held replica Norse swords in my hand, and they weren't sharp.

/Yari

 

[Despairbear]

Axes hack, swords cleave.

There is a point on a sword a few inches from the tip called the "point of percussion" or sweet spot. this is the part of the blade you would use to cut with. Slashing and draw cuts can be done with a straight bladed sword as it can with a curved blade. Thrusting becomes a little easier with a straight bladed sword than a curved one due to the focal point of the pressure on the blade while thrusting. If you have a chance some day do some test cutting with a few different swords, you will note what a great differance there is between each and you begin to see when and where each blade was ment to be used.



Despair Bear

 

[Yari]

But do you cut in the same way as a japanese sword; the cicular movement?

/Yari

 

[Samurai]

YiLiJIngLei's post in regards to the sharpening of a blade is right on target !!

Also, one of my pet-peeves is seeing expert swordsman smashing blades together in movies. This was done with the rapier which was a stabbing weapon but not with other sword as it would damage the blade.

David Lowry in his book "BOKKEN" says that several samurai would take a bokken into battle because the battle was too hard on the katana blades.

One other rant......when you cut with a katana, you start out making contact with the section of the sword that is closest to the handle and then use the entire blade to complete the cut.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

PS- Thanks for the information about the Jian sword. I was able to look through Yang Jwing-Ming's book on the sword form.

 

[Blindside]

One other rant......when you cut with a katana, you start out making contact with the section of the sword that is closest to the handle and then use the entire blade to complete the cut.

Hmm, ok, but not on the battlefield. I suspect most cuts were made farther out on the blade than on the closest one-third. It is simply a matter of range. Perhaps ideal tamishigiri cutting is done this way, but not against an opponent

How about the single handed cut done upon drawing the blade (iaido type)? That is definately not done with the closest area to the hilt.

Lamont

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Blindside


How about the single handed cut done upon drawing the blade (iaido type)? That is definately not done with the closest area to the hilt.

I've been told that on one handed cut's that your only using about the 1/4 of the outer part of the blade, ie. wrist eyes and so on...


/Yari

 

[theneuhauser]

anybody know anything about the story behind the bagua broadsword. ive seen some that must have been over 4 feet in length and they are not light. seems like a battlefield weapon, but why bagua?

 

[YiLiJingLei]

The BaGua Dao uses alot of body movement & stepping for the cutting methods. Cutting is not performed the same way as a Japanese katana--the cutting methods used with a Bagua Dao are more carving than the swiping cuts used in most kenjutsu ryu, which in contrast use more of the swing of the arm from the shoulder--with a big, heavy Bagua Dao, that just doesn't work, and isn't the intended use of the weapon. Often, one hand holds the handle, and either the body or the free hand will often support the cutting action by bracing along the spine, using the blood groove as a notch to control the cleaving angle. This can't be performed well with the flimsy, tin-foil sabres most commonly seen today in martial arts supply shops/catalogs, because they cater to competition-contemporary wu-shu, which has nothing to do with application of this particular weapon. Finding teachers that really understand how this weapon was actually intended to be used is very difficult these days, although there are many that offer contemporary/sport/competition routines for it, which have been completely fabricated in the last 30yrs. Hope that helps get some perspective on this widely misunderstood weapon.

 

[arnisador]

Once again, this is all fascinating information for us lurkers--I wish I had something to contribute. In Modern Arnis we use the bolo, a machete-like sword, but it's not emphasized--we mostly consider it another variation of stick fighting. The stick material was heavily influenced by Spanish fencing.

 

[YiLiJingLei]

To reiterate, Cutting with the Bagua Dao is performed more by the practicioner turning thier body & stepping around the heavy weapon, allowing its weight & the body turning to perform the deep cleaving cuts. Sure, you could say that using stepping & waist turning are of paramount importance when cutting with a Japanese Katana, but not nearly to the degree as seen with real Bagua Dao application. It's one of those things where you have to really see it to appreciate it, unfurtunately, it's very hard to find folks that really know how to use the big Bagua Dao these days. Hope that helps clarify. :asian:

 

[Blindside]

Often, one hand holds the handle, and either the body or the free hand will often support the cutting action by bracing along the spine, using the blood groove as a notch to control the cleaving angle.

It isn't a "blood groove."

Lamont