diff btwn tkd and tsd

[FatherHiei]

i live in a sort of rural area and have limited access to all the infinite forms of martial arts schools out there, i have been explained that the difference between tkd and tsd is tkd focus more on kicks and tsd on punches, if anyone could help me, i would appreciate it.

 

[Marginal]

Just from the TSD people I've encountered in TKD class, their stances tend to be deeper, and the stances are slightly different. (Lots of stances with rear foot pointing backwards etc) Has more of a kung fu flavor to it in general as well.

That's kind of a terrible comparison, but there you go.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Tang Soo Do as it is practiced now was developed by Hwang Kee. His background was primarily Kung Fu and Karate, with possible some Tae Kyun, although this cannot be substantiated. It is known that he trained for a short time under Won Kuk Lee, Chung Do Kwan Founder. As a result, TSD is definitely a Kung Fu/Karate based style, utilizing deeper stances and more hand techniques. If you watch it, it is quite comparable to karate as far as technique.
Tae Kwon Do is the modern Korean martial art. It was developed when heads of the various Kwans, with their various backgrounds (Shotokan, some Kung Fu, Tae Kyon) came together. Tae Kwon Do is definitely more kicking oriented, and uses techniques that might be termed "more Korean", as opposed to being karate influenced.
More importantly, TKD has also evolved over the years, and continues to evolve as far as techniques utilized, how they are executed, forms used etc. I know the TSD people might disagree, but this is a big difference between TKD and TSD-ability to evolve.

 

[mtabone]

ability to evolve?

With all due respect, your understanding of Tang Soo Do is not completely correct. I have been studying Tang Soo Do (Mi Guk Kwan) for 11+ years...

TKD while it originally has allot of Shotokan influence, I have seen less and less of that influence, first starting with the fact that TKD does not (for the majority) use Pinan/Hinan Kata (or as in Tang Soo Do we call them Pyung Ahn Hyungs). Stances are (again generally) much deeper in Tang Soo Do, and much less defined in TKD. As I hinted to before, we use the Hinan/Pinan series in our curriculum, called Pyung Ahn.

It is totally correct that TKD has changed the forms over the years. I don't see this as a good thing for TKD. Having gone to many a tournament, and seeing many a TKD form, (allot of these new forms you talk about) they have much less teaching value, as in balance, stability, power, use of hip, and the like.

Which brings me to my next point.
A major difference in Tang Soo Do and TKD is the emphasis on the hip usage. Tang Soo Do emphasizes it's use allot more, and TKD not as much.

Tang Soo Do as you say, has not evolved. I don't understand this comment. I am aware of many forms, ADDED, not substituted for. And many other things that are around and taught now, that where not taught back in the 1950's with the start of the Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.

Can you please clarify your statement on not evolving...

Namaste,
M.Tabone

 

[MichiganTKD]

Mr. Tabone,

Allow me to explain why I believe TKD has evolved over the years while TSD has not:

50 years ago, when it originally developed, TKD looked very similar to Japanese karate. Indeed, TKD and TSD originally were quite similar. While it did have some of the characteristic kicking techniques that we associate with TKD today, for the most part it retained the low stances, shorter karate-style kicks, Shotokan forms, and overall Japanese approach to execution of technique. In these aspects it was very similar to TSD. However, over time, the TKD powers that be made a purposeful decision to move TKD away from its Japanese influences and towards a more Koreanized style of martial art (emphasis mine). This included: characteristic Korean-style kicking, higher stances, discarding Shotokan and Chinese forms in favor of Korean-developed forms that have changed as need be, and modern TKD free fighting. It is awfully hard to be proud to practice a Korean martial art when you are still using Japanese forms and techniques. It is the TKD students who popularized long kicking and waist action.
On the other hand, TSD still retains a definite Japanese influence. By this I mean karate-style technique, short snappy kicking, and Japanese/Chinese originated forms. To me, watching a TSD practitioner is like watching a karate student. The way they execute technique is very similar. In fact, I've seen one famous Tae Kwon Do history site describe TSD as "simply Japanese karate as practiced in Korea." As one example, Chuck Norris, a TSD student, struck me as acting more like a karate student in how he did his techniques.
So in closing, I do feel that TKD has changed and evolved over the years: adding,taking away, and changing how it does technique as needed. TSD, on the other hand, still reminds me very much of Japanese karate and, to a certain extent, kung fu.

 

[Mithios]

You are comparing Tang Soo Do with(olympic) kukki-Taekwondo right? There is still a lot of classical Tae Kwon-Do out there, that is the same as Tang Soo Do. same, stance's, tech's, etc. Some Tae Kwon-Do even still doe's the same form's. Most of the kwan's called there style Tang Soo Do, before the name change to Tae Kwon-Do. Hwang kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan, not Tang Soo Do. The first to use the name Tang Soo Do was the Chung Do Kwan. It was also one of the first to change to the T.K.D. name. The moo Duk Kwan split and some stayed T.S.D. and the rest changed to the T.K.D. name. Tang Soo Do is original Tae Kwon-Do. Mithios

 

[MichiganTKD]

True to a certain extent. The TKD affiliated with, for example, the World TKD Association under Son still is highly reminiscient of the Tang Soo Do it developed out of. They still practice the Shotokan forms, so there are exceptions. And yes, I do refer to to the WTF/Kukkiwon TKD. But even Choi Hong Hi and his associates pioneered many of the developments of modern Tae Kwon Do, understanding the importance of the art to grow and evolve.
I do not consider the Tang Soo Do under Hwang Kee to be the original TKD, because he and his organization stayed separate from the TKD movement, refusing to adapt new forms, new free fighting, and not joining the KTA. So while the TKD as practiced today was indeed originally TSD (and other styles) under Won Kuk Lee's Chung Do Kwan (my style BTW), it did evolve with new forms, expanded and changed techniques, and developed new free fighting.
I'm not downplaying Hwang Kee and TSD BTW, just stating that it developed separately from Tae Kwon Do.

 

[Mithios]

Michigan T.K.D., Good point's! I agree! My system is also T.K.D.-C.D.K. Are you classical C.K.D(Son), Or C.K.D. through I.T.F. etc? Just curious, Mithios

 

[MichiganTKD]

Our organization is TKD Chung Do Kwan affiliated with the WTF/Kukkiwon. Our Instructor's teacher is GM Woon Kyu Uhm. I have not personally met him, but several of our Instructors have. Our school's lineage goes directly from our President to GM Uhm to Won Kuk Lee.

 

[mtabone]

Hello,

I am comparring Tang Soo Do (generaly) to TKD (generaly). Of course you can find a different type of Tang Soo Do or TKD, but if we were to talk in specifics here, it would come down to each school, org. and teacher, and that is a post, I am not willing nor able to make...

As for the line on Tang Soo Do having short kicks, I would agree somewhat. We do have "short-snappy kicking". That is one variation we learn. We also learn how to kick distance, to bring through in a breaking motion, as well as the classical ball of the foot/knife edge/heel penatration type kicking.

Every martial art evolves, it is just a question of wether it is a justifable evolution. If you say TKD "evolved" to be more Korean, then I say that is your reason. To me, I will just except what has worked, does work, and will work, regardless of its "birthplace". And as new things come along, which they do all the time in Tang Soo Do, they will be added and included into the living breathing art which I practice. That is the natural process of martial arts.

Namaste,
M.Tabone

 

[MichiganTKD]

By "evolution", I assume you mean the emphasis on tournament sparring and the Olympic movement that modern TKD has taken in the last 30 years. Understand, I fully support the idea of TKD moving away from Japanese roots, whatever that may entail, without making participation in the Olympics its final goal. It would be very easy as a WTF/Kukkiwon member to just follow the party line and categorize modern TKD as an Olympic sport and recreational activity. I do not. I believe TKD is a highly effective martial art and self defense style. Most people only see the tournament and free fighting aspect. I have seen how powerful its techniques can really be.
I believe modern TKD has done a great service to itself, as well as followed an inevitable evolution, by developing Korean-based forms, new kicking, new free fighting etc. To be sure, many of these forms were originally highly influenced by Japanese Karate. But they were a start.
I do not think pushing tournament sparring to the exclusion of most other aspects of it has been good for it. To the contrary. I also think, within the next decade or two, you will see TKD pursue a new road-getting back to its roots as a Korean martial art without devolving back to sport. The coming years will be a fascinating time for TKD, if in fact it is still called "Tae Kwon Do"-the same way it was a fascinating period between the 40's and 60's in TKD history. Where did it want to go? Keep in mind, as Korean martial arts evolved after WWII, the name evolved as well to reflect these changes. The same might be true in this case, as well as perhaps new forms. Anything is possible. But change is inevitable.

 

[RHD]

Just from the TSD people I've encountered in TKD class, their stances tend to be deeper, and the stances are slightly different. (Lots of stances with rear foot pointing backwards etc) Has more of a kung fu flavor to it in general as well.

That's kind of a terrible comparison, but there you go.

Anyone know what style(s) of kung fu this flavor draws upon?
Mike