Die with Honour or Live in Shame...

[Jenna]

Hello my MT friends of sound body and mind

Well these here are venerable concepts you might read in any of the old or ancient martial treatises but they do not belong to our modern age would you agree? I am speaking specifically about the CHOICE between dying with honour and living with shame

Nowadays there is no such choice to be made.. I mean while we can certainly die with honour.. I am thinking of those in active service or volunteering to provide aid in countries at war or in famine and disease and to die in these circumstances is honourable and likewise there are myriad +1 ways to live in shame.. however there is no CHOICE to be made between these two whereby we live in such shame it would be better to die with honour or whereby we are forced to live in shame having no vehicle to die with honour… we are able nowadays to bridge and reconcile these notions and this ancient CHOICE is no longer a part of our culture, right?

Anyone have any thoughts on the CHOICE between the two and the reality of its existence or not? Thank you

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[matt.m]

You know I was active duty Marine Corps from 92-97. I have used my 9 lives. However, getting to the point of the question. Yes, I believe you can die with honor easily without doing so in battle.

See, my interpretation of it falls under the following:
1. Were you a decent human being
2. Did you try to help others with good intentions or were they under an alterior motive.

-Matt

 

[Kacey]

There are many ways, I think, to die with honor other than those you stated. Most specifically, I would say dying to save the life of another person - especially a child; this does not have to occur in battle, most certainly, and encompasses a wide range of scenarios, from pushing another person out of danger and landing in it yourself to forgoing necessities (food, water, shelter) for the benefit of others in danger of dying, and dying yourself instead.

 

[green meanie]

There are many ways, I think, to die with honor other than those you stated. Most specifically, I would say dying to save the life of another person - especially a child; this does not have to occur in battle, most certainly, and encompasses a wide range of scenarios, from pushing another person out of danger and landing in it yourself to forgoing necessities (food, water, shelter) for the benefit of others in danger of dying, and dying yourself instead.

Good call Kacey. My thoughts were heading in the same direction. You not only beat me to it, you did a better job with it. :asian:

 

[Martial Tucker]

You know I was active duty Marine Corps from 92-97. I have used my 9 lives. However, getting to the point of the question. Yes, I believe you can die with honor easily without doing so in battle.

See, my interpretation of it falls under the following:
1. Were you a decent human being
2. Did you try to help others with good intentions or were they under an alterior motive.

-Matt

I'm with Matt. I think that "honor" is much more about how you lived your life than anything else. Did you give more than you took? Did you try to leave things better than you found them? Did you live with integrity, principle, and honesty? Did you lead by example? Were you kind and forgiving?

Or, were you thought of as a "taker" or a "user"? Did you focus on "getting" as much or more than giving? Were you a habitual liar? Did you constantly shirk responsibility or blame others for your failures? Did you take advantage of people or situations whenever the opportunity arose?

I'm reminded of my grandfather, who worked in a factory and lived his entire life in a house smaller than many people's garages. He raised 4 kids with total love and kindness to be solid, upstanding, citizens of integrity. He constantly gave of himself to his community, and had a reputation of unimpeachable character. While he never had more than a handful of nickels to rub together, he always had his children and grandchildren visiting him long after they were adults, because of the love he exuded and the example he set. He lived his life in a constant state of joy.
When this quiet but funny little man died at the age of 95, the entire town came to his funeral. The priest delivering the eulogy called him "the richest man I ever knew". If I can be half the man he was, I will have lived a life of "honor".

 

[stickarts]

Yes, I believe that we have a choice to live and die with honor.
Choosing to live by your own code of conduct, making personal sacrifices or taking a personal loss to do what you believe is right, and as others have stated already in other posts; sacrificing your life for a greater good or for another.

 

[tradrockrat]

to approach it from a more cynical and opposing point of veiw lets flip it - is it possible to live in shame to the point that you had wished to die with honor ?


Watch one episode of Jerry Springer... fame has greatly replaced "honor" in this scenario. Public figure is disgraced, public figure makes millions off his/her disgrace - much better (to them) than dying with honor. That seems to be the modern "choice" they must make. sad but true.

OH! EDIT: Living with honor is as easy as it's ever been - choose to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do - that's never changed.

 

[MA-Caver]

What is honor and what is shame? What would be the difference in living with honor and dying in shame as opposed to the original question? Philisophical questions like these will have answers that differ from person to person.
By general consensus (for example) those who fought on the plane that crashed in an unknown field on 9/11 died with honor. A soldier dies with honor defending his country or the lives of others who cannot otherwise defend themselves.
A man who holds his family hostage at gun-point and kill them all before turning the gun on himself dies in shame does he not? Maybe... depends upon his point of view wouldn't it?
Is Moussad living in honor or in shame right now in prison? Did the terrorist who died crashing those planes ... did they die in shame or honor?

Ask members of Al Quada <sic> and they will answer honor. Ask a family of one of the thousands who died that day and they'll say shame. Who's right?

History (and Japanese cinema) teaches us that the Samurai would prefer to die than live in shame. That seppuku was the honorable way to erase the shame of yours (or your Lord's) actions. But the Samurai who gutted himself is dead and those living could go right on thinking what they wanted to think couldn't they? Wouldn't they?

Our culture, our nations' and individual values and standards help define the question/difference for each of us. We can agree or disagree or agree to disagree. History is usually written by the winners, whether they were honorable or not.
Another example. June 25,1876... aka Custer's Last Stand or the Battle of Little Big Horn. Who was shameful and who was the honored? What did the members of the 7th Calvary do before that date to incur the wrath of the indians on that day? Did the soldiers die honorably are the indians living in shame? Depends upon how you look at it... doesn't it?

As the King of Siam once sang... T'is a puzzlement!

 

[Don Roley]

Nobody dies with honor.

People make the choice to live with honor. That choice may lead to them dying. Or they may survive to die of old age in bed. To live a life improving the world around you but dying of an illness is no worse than doing the same and dying because of your choice to do the honorable thing.

Courage takes many forms.

And to live in shame is a choice. You do not have to take certain actions and you are not prevented from trying to make up for past mistakes. To live and make amends for past actions takes a lot more courage than going out with a bang.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Nobody dies with honor.

People make the choice to live with honor. That choice may lead to them dying. Or they may survive to die of old age in bed. To live a life improving the world around you but dying of an illness is no worse than doing the same and dying because of your choice to do the honorable thing.

Courage takes many forms.

And to live in shame is a choice. You do not have to take certain actions and you are not prevented from trying to make up for past mistakes. To live and make amends for past actions takes a lot more courage than going out with a bang.

:asian:

 

[pstarr]

I'm with Matt and Mrtial Tucker. Excellent posts, guys!

 

[Jenna]

to approach it from a more cynical and opposing point of veiw lets flip it - is it possible to live in shame to the point that you had wished to die with honor ?

Thank you my friend for giving this due consideration And though you have asked maybe rhetorically I would like to enquire would you have an answer to your own question?

Watch one episode of Jerry Springer... fame has greatly replaced "honor" in this scenario. Public figure is disgraced, public figure makes millions off his/her disgrace - much better (to them) than dying with honor. That seems to be the modern "choice" they must make. sad but true.

And what do we think of such erstwhile celebrities who live this way in a shame obvious to us all? Do we admire them for their resiliance and adaptability and PR nous? Or would it be better for them to have lived in the feudal years where they may have indeed been more aware of the merits of hara-kiri? Thank you

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

Nobody dies with honor.

People make the choice to live with honor. That choice may lead to them dying. Or they may survive to die of old age in bed. To live a life improving the world around you but dying of an illness is no worse than doing the same and dying because of your choice to do the honorable thing.

Courage takes many forms.

Roley-san thank you for your insight and thoughtfulness I am grateful.. can I ask you please do you really mean there is NO honour in ANY death whatsoever?

As an aside do you believe maybe there was EVER once honour in death in seppaku? in hara-kiri? Are we wiser now than we were in these long-past times? or have we lost the honour that was possessed by the fabled samurai real or imagined?

I understand this paragraph exactly....

And to live in shame is a choice. You do not have to take certain actions and you are not prevented from trying to make up for past mistakes. To live and make amends for past actions takes a lot more courage than going out with a bang.

But I would like to ask another question of you if you would allow... what is the resolution for a person who suffers a shame NOT brought about by their own doing but at the hands of another person? I am hoping this makes sense to you and you have an answer..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

a wish tied on a bamboo tree

 

[HKphooey]

Nothing fancy...

Just be kind to others and lend a helping had where you can.

 

[Don Roley]

can I ask you please do you really mean there is NO honour in ANY death whatsoever?

Death is rather neutral. You choose to live with honor or otherwise. Your choices may lead to your death. Seppeku was the end result of things done, a way of saying sorry in some cases. The samurai did it in that manner to prove that they were willing to die in as painfull a manner as possible and not taking the easy way out. But there is a saying in Japanese to the effect that living with obligations is like having a mountain on top of you while dying is lighter than a feather. To live and make things right is the honorable thing rather than taking the easy way to fame with a dramatic death.

As for dishonor brought on by others, there really is nothing much one person can do to another to bring shame on them if the person is strong enough. You merely need to strength to stand on your own feet.

I have a friend. I knew he was raised by foster parents. What I did not know until later was that his birth father is still in jail and probably will die there for something really scummy. My friend still feels shame and has gone the route that many with low self esteem go through. He was a rough and tumble guy always trying to prove his manhood in various ways.

But the shame really is not his. You would say so, I would say so, everyone outside can see that it is not his shame. But I know he feels it. I think any shame brought on you by someone else is just as false as the shame my friend feels.

 

[Jenna]

Death is rather neutral. You choose to live with honor or otherwise. Your choices may lead to your death. Seppeku was the end result of things done, a way of saying sorry in some cases. The samurai did it in that manner to prove that they were willing to die in as painfull a manner as possible and not taking the easy way out. But there is a saying in Japanese to the effect that living with obligations is like having a mountain on top of you while dying is lighter than a feather. To live and make things right is the honorable thing rather than taking the easy way to fame with a dramatic death.

As for dishonor brought on by others, there really is nothing much one person can do to another to bring shame on them if the person is strong enough. You merely need to strength to stand on your own feet.

I have a friend. I knew he was raised by foster parents. What I did not know until later was that his birth father is still in jail and probably will die there for something really scummy. My friend still feels shame and has gone the route that many with low self esteem go through. He was a rough and tumble guy always trying to prove his manhood in various ways.

But the shame really is not his. You would say so, I would say so, everyone outside can see that it is not his shame. But I know he feels it. I think any shame brought on you by someone else is just as false as the shame my friend feels.

Roley-san you are very gracious and very insightful and thank you for this reply which I will say is greatly appreciated.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Nobody dies with honor.

People make the choice to live with honor. That choice may lead to them dying. Or they may survive to die of old age in bed. To live a life improving the world around you but dying of an illness is no worse than doing the same and dying because of your choice to do the honorable thing.

Courage takes many forms.

And to live in shame is a choice. You do not have to take certain actions and you are not prevented from trying to make up for past mistakes. To live and make amends for past actions takes a lot more courage than going out with a bang.

Very well said and thought out! People make a choice to live with honor is an important point. Living and living well and in a manner that allows you to help and improve your world is simply priceless. Honor my friends is still alive on this world and there are multiple people right here that is proof of this.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

To make life have meaning through living honorably. In doing so, then your death will have meaning as well. I believe that this is significant when discussing honor and shame.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[tradrockrat]

Thank you my friend for giving this due consideration And though you have asked maybe rhetorically I would like to enquire would you have an answer to your own question?

I think not many people would ever believe so. Shame just desn't mean what it used to. Today, we have become relatively shameless as a society

And what do we think of such erstwhile celebrities who live this way in a shame obvious to us all? Do we admire them for their resiliance and adaptability and PR nous? Or would it be better for them to have lived in the feudal years where they may have indeed been more aware of the merits of hara-kiri? Thank you

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

This is where I tend to get upset - we do indeed respect an "infamous" persons ability to get rich having their noses rubbed in their own excrement. As for living in a feudal system...well, lets just say that peole tended to think a little harder before acting when the consequences were more permanent and severe - not neccessarily a bad thing.

good thread

 

[SAVAGE]

Hello my MT friends of sound body and mind

Well these here are venerable concepts you might read in any of the old or ancient martial treatises but they do not belong to our modern age would you agree? I am speaking specifically about the CHOICE between dying with honour and living with shame

Nowadays there is no such choice to be made.. I mean while we can certainly die with honour.. I am thinking of those in active service or volunteering to provide aid in countries at war or in famine and disease and to die in these circumstances is honourable and likewise there are myriad +1 ways to live in shame.. however there is no CHOICE to be made between these two whereby we live in such shame it would be better to die with honour or whereby we are forced to live in shame having no vehicle to die with honour… we are able nowadays to bridge and reconcile these notions and this ancient CHOICE is no longer a part of our culture, right?

Anyone have any thoughts on the CHOICE between the two and the reality of its existence or not? Thank you

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Iwill share with you an experience I had a few weeks ago...and you tell me whether I had honour or Shame.

Since the birth of my child, I havent had much time for anything. My training has suffered, but it is a sacrifice I gladly make to see the joy in my childs eyes...I wouldnt miss that for the world, and I have been doing martial arts all of my life....I will go back of that there is no question, but right now I am just enjoying being a father.

So my wifes cosins came in from the land down under and we go out.....I dont drink so I was the driver. Anyway we arivve at the infamous Traps bar....a favourite watering hole of mine from my single days. So I walk in and everyone makes for the pool table...I say allright I am going to get the drinks....the middle bar is full so I move to the front bar to buy the Jugs/Pitcher.

So if you will let me tell you about the layout:

There is a narrow stair going downward...about 4 steps then you gat into the bar there are booths to the left and the bar on the right a little open space and then a locked door. You cant walk side by side between the bar and the booths, its single file.

Any way so I make my way to the corner of the bar...the far corner to order my drinks when one guy (an old friend...now ex friend), comes up to me and says:

David: "What the *ahem* do you think you are doing here"

Savage: "Well G, whats up?"

David: "So what you gonna buy me a jug or what?"

Savage: "Here take this one and I will get another"

Savage (to bar tender): "Pate get me another Jug bro!"

I looked up at this point and there was this guy standing behind David. Eyeballs almost popping out of his head:

Johhny: "you remember me?....You remember me MOTHER Trucker?"

SAVAGE: "Yeah I remember you..whats happening"

I extended my hand

J: "No, **** you...whats up? You wanna **** with me"

S: "David whats up with your boy?"

J: "you called david a b***h, now we gonna **** you up"

S "Yeah I called him a *****, I always called him a *****..whats your problem?"

D "Hey man hes scared (refering to me)"


J: "When I see you in a dark alley I am gonna slit your throat"

At this stage I remember thinking...seriously dude when do you think I am going to be in a dark alley?

Thats when this big fijian guy came up and stood beside me.

S: "Listen I am going to take my beer and leave now"

I turned picked up my jug and made to leave when the big guy stuck his fingers in my jug and dripped beer onto my head. I started to lose my temper...I wanted to fight, I mean there were only six of them....but I checked it, I didnt want to spoil the evening for my wife, she rarely gets a night out.

J: "do it again"

So the big guy did.

S: "are you done"

Then the bouncers walked in...and I took the opportunity to leave. The rest of the evening was uneventful.

Honour is a term that people use not understanding the depth of its meaning, its not a matter of acting the vigilante, Shame is also a misrepresented concept....should I have been ashamed that I did not raise my fists but left the monkeys to act like monkeys.

I ask again what do you think should I be ashamed?