Creating a very light weight, collapsible baton - feedback needed

eskrima88

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Hello, fellow martial artists.

For a while now, I've been scouring the web for a truly lightweight, collapsible baton, and I keep coming up empty. Even the highest quality models are relatively heavy, and too long to practically conceal.

I'm disappointed to find that no one is making them from carbon fiber or extremely lightweight aluminum. I realize both of these materials can bend or break on impact, but actually hitting someone with a baton in self-defense, to me, is akin to a bicycle accident while wearing a helmet. Once you crash with your helmet, you replace it.

The closest thing I can find what I'm looking for is a collapsible hiking pole. Has anyone seen, or built, anything like what I have in mind? Unfortunately, I am not handy enough to modify a hiking pole to suit my needs.
pol.jpg
 

drop bear

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A whip mabye?

I think you start to shoot yourself in the foot a bit when you hit someone and you bat has no weight.

But they do different versions of the tactical whip that tend to run along the lines of this sort of thing.

 
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eskrima88

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A whip mabye?

I think you start to shoot yourself in the foot a bit when you hit someone and you bat has no weight.

But they do different versions of the tactical whip that tend to run along the lines of this sort of thing.

Good point. However, the rattan sticks I've used in training are extremely lightweight, but properly aimed, they provide a fair bit of force.
 

drop bear

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Good point. However, the rattan sticks I've used in training are extremely lightweight, but properly aimed, they provide a fair bit of force.

One solid piece though.

At a quick google monodock do one. I have used the brand before and they are pretty good.

 
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eskrima88

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One solid piece though.

At a quick google monodock do one. I have used the brand before and they are pretty good.

Thanks-- way too big and heavy. The hiking poles are featherweight by comparison.
 

geezer

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Good point. However, the rattan sticks I've used in training are extremely lightweight, but properly aimed, they provide a fair bit of force.
It occurs to me, that if your intentions are to use super-light batons for self-defense, you may end up just really pissing-off your attacker.

It's important to remember that rattan was considered a training weapon in most FMA. Yeah it hurts like hell and can injure you, but if you were really fighting you would ideally choose something with a lot more weight like bahi or kamagong ...or a bladed weapon like a barong.

People who are strong and aggressive can wade through a couple of whipping strikes with light rattan, absorbing the damage long enough to close and really hurt you. Check out the many clips of full-contact stick fighting on YouTube (Dog Bros. et al).

So, what is your intention with these really light batons you are looking for?
 

Dirty Dog

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The collapsible batons break easy. All of them Ive seen so far.
Agreed. The less overlap there is between the extended joints, the weaker they are going to be. More overlap will make the joints stronger, but then it won't collapse as fully.
And of course, the lighter the baton, the less it's going to hurt, in most cases.
 

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To the OP:

I would strongly suggest a sturdy, full sized umbrella, and to use the tip for thrusting, and for shielding, and not to even think of striking with it. That, or simply a high powered flash light with a thumb button.

As for an ultra light collapsible baton, I think it's just a really bad idea. Now, I want to be open minded here -- I appreciate the damage that can be done with a lightweight rattan stick, and would defend anyone arguing the effectiveness of that (much like I'd defend the idea of conceal carrying "under powered" handgun calibers), but I think what you are talking about here would be a fair bit lighter, less sturdy, and probably not even as long, as a rattan stick. That is unlikely to be effective at all, and will probably just get you in more trouble than it's worth.

Personally, I would carry a high powered flashlight with a thumb button for self defense, to disorient/distract an attacker, and to use potentially as a kubaton. An umbrella, when not out of place, is also a useful tool. Both of these won't get you in trouble and are not seen as weapons, and would be equally or far more effective than a flimsy ultra light "baton."

Something like a hiking pole would be almost entirely useless. If you were a friend of mine dead set on this idea, I'd even invite you to swing it at me as hard as you like while I try to move in and grapple or disarm you. You might get a good hit in, and it'll hurt, but you will not be breaking any bones or doing any serious harm. Meanwhile, I can definitively make my point and spare you from getting killed if you ever did try to use it in self defense. Maybe a better test would be to try to break something roughly simulating various targets on a human. Traditionally, a coconut is often used to gauge whether a strike can be effective against a human head. You won't come anywhere near close to breaking a coconut with an aluminium hiking pole. You would have a hard time even breaking the small bones in an attackers hand.

I understand your want for an ultra light, non fire arm self defense implement. I too tend to prefer very light weight and compact tools and weapons in general. But, I'm afraid this one just isn't very viable. If you truly want a light weight force multiplier, other than the options I mentioned above, maybe something like a kubaton would be appropriate. But beware of the legal ramifications of carrying any dedicated "weapon" where you live.
 
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eskrima88

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To the OP:

I would strongly suggest a sturdy, full sized umbrella, and to use the tip for thrusting, and for shielding, and not to even think of striking with it. That, or simply a high powered flash light with a thumb button.

As for an ultra light collapsible baton, I think it's just a really bad idea. Now, I want to be open minded here -- I appreciate the damage that can be done with a lightweight rattan stick, and would defend anyone arguing the effectiveness of that (much like I'd defend the idea of conceal carrying "under powered" handgun calibers), but I think what you are talking about here would be a fair bit lighter, less sturdy, and probably not even as long, as a rattan stick. That is unlikely to be effective at all, and will probably just get you in more trouble than it's worth.

Personally, I would carry a high powered flashlight with a thumb button for self defense, to disorient/distract an attacker, and to use potentially as a kubaton. An umbrella, when not out of place, is also a useful tool. Both of these won't get you in trouble and are not seen as weapons, and would be equally or far more effective than a flimsy ultra light "baton."

Something like a hiking pole would be almost entirely useless. If you were a friend of mine dead set on this idea, I'd even invite you to swing it at me as hard as you like while I try to move in and grapple or disarm you. You might get a good hit in, and it'll hurt, but you will not be breaking any bones or doing any serious harm. Meanwhile, I can definitively make my point and spare you from getting killed if you ever did try to use it in self defense. Maybe a better test would be to try to break something roughly simulating various targets on a human. Traditionally, a coconut is often used to gauge whether a strike can be effective against a human head. You won't come anywhere near close to breaking a coconut with an aluminium hiking pole. You would have a hard time even breaking the small bones in an attackers hand.

I understand your want for an ultra light, non fire arm self defense implement. I too tend to prefer very light weight and compact tools and weapons in general. But, I'm afraid this one just isn't very viable. If you truly want a light weight force multiplier, other than the options I mentioned above, maybe something like a kubaton would be appropriate. But beware of the legal ramifications of carrying any dedicated "weapon" where you live.
Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply. I like the suggestion of testing the hiking pole against a simulated target.

While scenarios are, of course, unpredictable, the strategy I've been taught is to defend, strike, and get the hell out of there. One would hope that a few smacks from hiking pole would be enough to create an exit.

Oddly, my community allows concealed carry of blades, with certain limitations, but not batons. I am comfortable wielding a blade, but preferred the reach and relative non-lethality of an impact weapon.

Another thing I am considering--an aluminum water bottle. I have one that makes an excellent weapon, the only drawback being the less than ideal handhold.
 

Argus

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Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply. I like the suggestion of testing the hiking pole against a simulated target.

While scenarios are, of course, unpredictable, the strategy I've been taught is to defend, strike, and get the hell out of there. One would hope that a few smacks from hiking pole would be enough to create an exit.

Oddly, my community allows concealed carry of blades, with certain limitations, but not batons. I am comfortable wielding a blade, but preferred the reach and relative non-lethality of an impact weapon.

Another thing I am considering--an aluminum water bottle. I have one that makes an excellent weapon, the only drawback being the less than ideal handhold.

Now, the water bottle idea is a great one! Practice striking against a target with it, and see if you can grip it well enough to make good use of it.

I agree with you on blades. I'm not a fan of folding knives for self defense for a bunch of reasons, even though I've trained with them a lot. I love blade arts, but still.
 

Dirty Dog

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I agree with you on blades. I'm not a fan of folding knives for self defense for a bunch of reasons, even though I've trained with them a lot. I love blade arts, but still.
What reasons?
 

geezer

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What reasons?
The question I have is whether the problem is with folding knives vs. fixed blades, or whether it is a problem with using knives for self defense in general.

Personally, I have no problem with a good quality, heavy duty, locking folder that you can open with one hand. It's probably the most universal tool a person can carry.

...On the other hand, in the world I live in, I don't feel a knife (of any kind) is a great choice for a defensive weapon. Like Argus, I have enjoyed training some blade arts, but still...
 

drop bear

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What reasons?

To small. To fiddly. They do too much damage and don't really do the thing you want them to do.

So you can say stab a guy and he may wander off and die in a pool of blood 15 minutes later.

Bit if you really want that guy to stop fighting you. Him dying 15 minutes later isn't really going to help you right now.
 

Dirty Dog

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The question I have is whether the problem is with folding knives vs. fixed blades, or whether it is a problem with using knives for self defense in general.
Well, since they wrote
I'm not a fan of folding knives for self defense
I think your question is answered.
 

Dirty Dog

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To small.
No they're not. My usual carry knife these days is either a Microtech Ultratech which has a 3.35" blade, or a Benchmade Infidel with a 3.95" blade. Either is plenty long enough. Because people are squishy. A 10" blade is not needed.
To fiddly.
I have no idea what that means.
They do too much damage and don't really do the thing you want them to do.
Nope. They do exactly the amount of damage I want.
So you can say stab a guy and he may wander off and die in a pool of blood 15 minutes later.

Bit if you really want that guy to stop fighting you. Him dying 15 minutes later isn't really going to help you right now.
Like any other tool or technique, effectiveness varies. If it's not effective, you probably did it wrong. I am quite confident that if I want to use a knife to make you stop attacking me right now, I can. Or I can shoot you. That works too.
 
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geezer

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To small. To fiddly. They do too much damage and don't really do the thing you want them to do.

So you can say stab a guy and he may wander off and die in a pool of blood 15 minutes later.

Bit if you really want that guy to stop fighting you. Him dying 15 minutes later isn't really going to help you right now.a
So youd advocate carrying something larger and more immediately lethal? A sword, perhaps?

Perfectly legal where I live. But kinda awkward, and people would constantly be asking about it.
 

drop bear

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So youd advocate carrying something larger and more immediately lethal? A sword, perhaps?

Perfectly legal where I live. But kinda awkward, and people would constantly be asking about it.

A bat or a sap or a tazer or mace. Or even a decently applies choke. Something that is more likely to stop the guy.

And something I would get in less trouble for.

Knives illustrate the difference between killing and stopping. I don't care if they die. I want to break their current action. And I want to do it right now.
 

drop bear

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No they're not. My usual carry knife these days is either a Microtech Ultratech which has a 3.35" blade, or a Benchmade Infidel with a 3.95" blade. Either is plenty long enough. Because people are squishy. A 10" blade is not needed.

I have no idea what that means.

Nope. They do exactly the amount of damage I want.

Like any other tool or technique, effectiveness varies. If it's not effective, you probably did it wrong. I am quite confident that if I want to use a knife to make you stop attacking me right now, I can. Or I can shoot you. That works too.

There is a lot of back of house needed to understand knives for self defence. My post was basically just cover notes.
 
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