Create your own form

[oftheherd1]

I don't think so.

The first commercially available window based operating system predates ms windows 1 by 6 years, that was based on a proprietary system from 8 years previous.

Apple, Atari, DR and Commodore all beat MS to a GUI release.

Apart from those (xerox based, hence X windows) there were a number of GUIs available to layer on DOS if you wanted.

What Gates did was market his version and sign supply deals.

Oh yes. GEOS on the Commodore, Apple, and IBM worked better than windows, and I don't recall any glitches.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It will be nice that you can create a form that contain all the principles/strategies exist in your MA system.

For example, in Chinese wrestling, there are principles/strategies as:

1. Opposite directions attack - throw your opponent in one direction, when he resists, throw him in the opposite direction.
2. Same direction attack - throw your opponent in one direction, when he yields/escapes, throw him in the same direction again.
3. Linear attack to circular attack - use linear throw, when he resists, change into circular throw.
4. Circular attack to linear attack - use circular throw, when he resists, change into linear throw.
5. Clockwise attack to counter-clockwise attack - use clockwise throw, when he resists, change into counter-clockwise throw.
6. Counter-clockwise attack to clockwise attack - use counter-clockwise throw, when he resists, change into clockwise throw.
7. Upward attack to downward attack - use upward throw, when he resists, change into downward throw.
8. Downward attack to upward attack - use downward throw, when he resists, change into upward throw.
9. Attack one leg, then attack the other leg.
10. ...

For example, a Chinese wrestling form can be created as:

1. Opposite directions attack - leg spring, knee seize.
2. Same direction attack - hip throw, leg block.
3. Linear attack to circular attack - linear hand block, circular hand block.
4. Circular attack to linear attack - diagonal cut, head lock leg block.
5. Clockwise attack to counter-clockwise attack - foot sweep, twist and spring.
6. Counter-clockwise attack to clockwise attack - leg block, shoulder strike.
7. Upward attack to downward attack - embrace, double legs.
8. Downward attack to upward attack - single leg, firemen's carry.
9. Attack one leg, then attack the other leg - leg seize, twist and spring.
10. ...

Each principle/strategy can map into many combo techniques, Many forms can be created. Since there exist no such form that record these kind of information, someone has to do this task.

 

[skribs]

It will be nice that you can create a form that contain all the principles/strategies exist in your MA system.

For example, in Chinese wrestling, there are principles/strategies as:

1. Opposite directions attack - throw your opponent in one direction, when he resists, throw him in the opposite direction.
2. Same direction attack - throw your opponent in one direction, when he yields/escapes, throw him in the same direction again.
3. Linear attack to circular attack - use linear throw, when he resists, change into circular throw.
4. Circular attack to linear attack - use circular throw, when he resists, change into linear throw.
5. Clockwise attack to counter-clockwise attack - use clockwise throw, when he resists, change into counter-clockwise throw.
6. Counter-clockwise attack to clockwise attack - use counter-clockwise throw, when he resists, change into clockwise throw.
7. Upward attack to downward attack - use upward throw, when he resists, change into downward throw.
8. Downward attack to upward attack - use downward throw, when he resists, change into upward throw.
9. Attack one leg, then attack the other leg.
10. ...

Since there exist no such form that record these kind of information, someone has to do that task. Since each principle/strategy can map into more than 10 combo techniques, More than 10 forms can be created.

What is a linear throw?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What is a linear throw?

- A linear throw is you throw your opponent into one direction (for example, front cut, hip throw, ...).
- A circular throw is you throw your opponent in circular (for example, twist and spring, neck wipe kick, ...).

 

[skribs]

- A linear throw is you throw your opponent into one direction (for example, front cut, hip throw, ...).
- A circular throw is you throw your opponent in circular (for example, twist and spring, neck wipe kick, ...).

I don't know what any of those mean. Except hip throw, which I think of as circular.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Unless you have recorded it, otherwise it's just some valuable information in your mind that others won't be able to use it.

The best way to create a form is from fighting. The following are all good combos to be part of the form.

- groin kick, face punch,
- roundhouse kick, side kick,
- jab, cross, uppercut,
- elbow lock, shoulder lock,
- single leg, foot sweep,
- ...

Here is an example of

- roundhouse kick,
- side kick,
- double under-hooks,
- bear hug,
- knee strike,
- outer hook.

Well yes, why should other people use it? I'm not trying to teach other people Martial Arts. The forms and combinations I develop are for my own personal use, based on the way I like to fight and my body. Everyone's body is slightly different and it's unlikely that somebody would be able to exactly copy my style of fighting, so why bother recording it in a formalized form to show to others?

 

[skribs]

Well yes, why should other people use it? I'm not trying to teach other people Martial Arts. The forms and combinations I develop are for my own personal use, based on the way I like to fight and my body. Everyone's body is slightly different and it's unlikely that somebody would be able to exactly copy my style of fighting, so why bother recording it in a formalized form to show to others?

I think you're conflicting Style and Form. Style is how you fight, your tendencies and tactics. A Form is more of a static appendix of techniques (to reduce it to an overly simplistic view).

So if you do the same thing every time you fight that would be a form. If you react differently and do different things every time you fight, that would be a style.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I think you're conflicting Style and Form. Style is how you fight, your tendencies and tactics. A Form is more of a static appendix of techniques (to reduce it to an overly simplistic view).

So if you do the same thing every time you fight that would be a form. If you react differently and do different things every time you fight, that would be a style.

If a form is just a list of techniques then what is the point in making one of my own? To go back to the book analogy, it would be like rewriting the dictionary.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If a form is just a list of techniques then what is the point in making one of my own? To go back to the book analogy, it would be like rewriting the dictionary.

If you have learned 200 techniques, how will you be able to remember it?

 

[Midnight-shadow]

If you have learned 200 techniques, how will you be able to remember it?

Our brains have around 2.5 petabytes of storage space, I'm pretty sure I can remember a couple hundred fighting techniques if I really wanted to.

 

[oldwarrior]

Our brains have around 2.5 petabytes of storage space, I'm pretty sure I can remember a couple hundred fighting techniques if I really wanted to.

I need to eat more brain food as I cannot remember that many ....(sorry just my sense of humour)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Our brains have around 2.5 petabytes of storage space, I'm pretty sure I can remember a couple hundred fighting techniques if I really wanted to.

In high school, I had hard time to remember this before I could make it into a "poem".

I had linked 13 independent static postures training into a sequence. It helps me to remember.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't know what any of those mean. Except hip throw, which I think of as circular.

Here is an example that a linear throw changes into a circular throw. When you throw your opponent to the east, your opponent will resists to the west. If you change your linear throw into circular throw, his resistance won't give you any trouble.

 

[dvcochran]

Our GM occasionally changes a move in a poomse. On purpose? Yes, definitely.

 

[skribs]

If a form is just a list of techniques then what is the point in making one of my own? To go back to the book analogy, it would be like rewriting the dictionary.

As I said, I was grossly over-simplifying it. What I meant is that form is rote memorization of techniques, combos, drills, etc. A style is your preferences and strategies.

For example, in Taekwondo, the combat style is deep stances, blocks and powerful counter-attacks (as opposed to something like Wing Chun, which uses soft hands to control the enemy, quick strikes, and shallower stances).

But a form would be a repeatable pattern, such as a series of combos you train in succession, or blocks and counter-attacks.

Not all arts need a form, but if you make your own it can be a good way to focus on specific combinations or specific drills over and over again.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

As I said, I was grossly over-simplifying it. What I meant is that form is rote memorization of techniques, combos, drills, etc. A style is your preferences and strategies.

For example, in Taekwondo, the combat style is deep stances, blocks and powerful counter-attacks (as opposed to something like Wing Chun, which uses soft hands to control the enemy, quick strikes, and shallower stances).

But a form would be a repeatable pattern, such as a series of combos you train in succession, or blocks and counter-attacks.

Not all arts need a form, but if you make your own it can be a good way to focus on specific combinations or specific drills over and over again.

I can only speak from personal experience but the forms that I learned encompassed not only the base techniques but the philosophy of the style too. That's why you can get vastly different representations of the same form from different schools, despite everyone doing the same basic movements.

This is the best analogy I can think of to describe what a form is to me. In the video, it's the same song, same lyrics and notes, but sung completely differently each time they change genre. A form can encompass a unique style just as a song can be sung in many different genres.

 

[_Simon_]

One might say that you create a new form every single time you perform one ;D [emoji14]


("No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." - Heraclitus)

 

[oldwarrior]

One might say that you create a new form every single time you perform one ;D [emoji14]


("No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." - Heraclitus)

Umm yes I have heard that said to me a few times lol......................must admit tho it was usually followed by me looking up at the dojo roof after being guided into the proper form lol

 

[Mark Lynn]

You can repeat Ernest Hemingway "The old man and the sea" from the 1st word to the last word 10,000 times in your life. It's still Hemingway's book and not yours. If you don't create, you are just a copy machine, no more and no less.

When are you going to create your own form?

I agree that you can read Ernest Hemingway's book 10,000 times and in the end you didn't create anything and it's not yours. However I believe that if you read it and then remember it you do make it your own. If you recite it, you put your emphasis on it through your tonal qualities, thereby making it in a sense your own which will be different from others. I don't look at this as a copy machine. I think of stories of people who were prisoners of war who would recite passages of the bible to each other, to encourage each other through their ordeal. That's not be a simple copy machine. Likewise people who read scripture and gain insight into the passages meaning and write commentaries or preach sermons on it are again making something their own, not just being a copy machine. So I don't really believe the analogy applies to martial art forms.

Now people who practice forms for performance sake are really performance artists. Each time they take a form and alter it to make it more pleasing to the eye, to hopefully score a higher score, or a louder applause at the end they are making it their own, which is why even from the same school you can see the form performed differently in subtle and some not so subtle ways. I don't believe this is being a copy of something.

Then there are those people who do the forms only for rank advancement, those are to me close to what I think you mean by the term copy machines. The copy machine is only meant to reproduce the page that was scanned, whereas the karate ka who only does his form for rank advancement doesn't care if it has been altered, doesn't really care about application, hand placement etc. etc. instead they are only worried about hitting the mark close enough to pass onto the next rank. Kind of like looking at a copy of a paper that had noise on it and trying to decide can I pass this page onto the next person and can they read it.

Then you have the people who really study the form whether they care about exploring the execution of techniques, or how to apply them, their history, their meanings etc. etc. I believe these people are making the form their own while adhering to the form's structure and possibly intent. No matter how many times they do the kata (form) they are honing it, fine tuning their bodies movements, refining the application or finding new applications and understanding of the forms. This isn't mere recital or memorization of a book but immersion into the story it self; thus living it, gaining insight into it on a much deeper level than a mere copy machine.

You asked when are we going to create our own forms? I don't know, do I need to? I have taken some of the single stick forms in Modern Arnis and adapted them to: double stick, bolo, , nunchaku, and kama. I've adapted our Modern Arnis empty hand forms to kama, staff etc. etc. Likewise I've taken FMA related combative type flow drills and adapted them to Bo vs Bo, Bo vs kama, Bo vs tonfa, etc. etc. I've taken weapons forms that I never had learned applications for and then created two man drills (applications) for. I don't consider my efforts to mere copying someone else, because the adaptations of kata were mine and my students creations. Yet we had a template taught to myself (the original form) who then passed it on to my students and through lessons I came up with some adaptations and applications and they did some themselves. I don't think this is being a copy machine either.

Using someone else's kata as a base to work from helps me to understand my arts better and it stimulates growth for both my students and I as opposed to making up all things new again. That foundation has already been laid why tear it up?

 

[Mark Lynn]

A copy machine, yes. Transcribed copies that are meticulously checked by diligent monks? The Bible was transcribed this way for thousands of years, ensured to such exact detail that every page must be consistent with the previous writing. This is different than copying from a copy with extra noise in the image.

I agree, transcribed copies in this format, is what allows for the newer copies to be checked against the older fragments to see if it has been altered. Whereas in forms, because of all of the different intentions (reasons for learning them) behind form practice; some of which you list below. Forms will change over time due to: the people learning them, their physical abilities, their reasons for learning the forms, their understanding of the forms, their want of change (I never liked this jump side kick so I'm going to do a jump front kick), their desire to modify the kata (like "Chungi Modifed" with a jump turn kick after the last punch) to make it harder or easier to learn, the environment the kata is learned in etc. etc.

Because of all of the variables I don't see the copy machine analogy.

This is YOUR definition of a form. And it doesn't seem very consistent. Is it for linking combos together or for rote recording of techniques? Is it for partner drills (which involve failure, counters, and reactions) or is it simply about combinations? Is the goal instruction or as a system of record?

Some people use forms to teach exaggerated precision in the technique. Some use forms to teach combos. Some use forms as a replacement for partner drills when you're at home. Some simply use it as a system of record.

The reason why these questions are asked is because that will define the need for innovation in the form, as well as what type of form you need to create.

If it's simply a record of techniques, there doesn't really need to be any change, unless you add or remove techniques. If the purpose is to teach the techniques and combinations, then simply changing one form or adding a form isn't going to be enough and you have to shift your entire curriculum.

If your form is simply a set of combinations, then you train the form for the combination and do partner drills to work on practical precision and counters and reads. If your form is partner drills without a partner, then the forms will naturally change as your drills change.

The purpose and the design of your forms within your curriculum and style is an important consideration.

I agree with your statements here, especially the bolded text. I think you can take existing forms and make them your own according to how you answer or view your statements here.