Counter's Don't Work

[JP3]

Counters work, if you don't think about them. If you are thinking about what you are doing when you are trying to do it... nothing is going to work in an real SD situation.

The reason folks train lots of different counters, drill them all in lots of different ways is to train the body in reactions (this is in my personal opinion) so that down the road, about 10,000 repetitions later, if/when called upon by situation, then the counter just appears and it is executed and wham-o bad guy down with he attacked person standing there wondering what exactly they did.

 

[kuniggety]

This is bollux. You do what you've learned well. That whole "muscle memory" thing is not a myth. If it were, soccer (football) players wouldn't be able to dribble under pressure.

Yes, "complicated" doesn't work. But "complicated" is only complicated when it doesn't fit the flow that's happening in the moment. And, no, you don't learn just ONE thing to do if he grabs your shoulder/wrist, etc. In fact, you learn one technique, then how to recognize its applications if he grabs your shoulder/wrist, etc. Then you learn another.

Concur with all of this. Also, with repetition, what may seem "complicated" becomes uncomplicated. I've been teaching some fundamentals of submission grappling to some of my coworkers lately. I showed them the triangle choke and one guy said it was complicated. I explained it's really not because it all breaks down to a figure four with the legs with one of their arms in and one out. It's drilling it over and over until it becomes second nature/muscle memory.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Concur with all of this. Also, with repetition, what may seem "complicated" becomes uncomplicated. I've been teaching some fundamentals of submission grappling to some of my coworkers lately. I showed them the triangle choke and one guy said it was complicated. I explained it's really not because it all breaks down to a figure four with the legs with one of their arms in and one out. It's drilling it over and over until it becomes second nature/muscle memory.

Yes. In fact, if we look at some of the submission holds that happen in the ring in MMA, many are fairly complicated. They sometimes involve rolling your body in one directly, slipping the opponent's arm in another, applying some key pressure to keep them from escaping, then settling into the hold. In the moment, the person doing it doesn't find it complicated, at all. They see an opening, and they move to it. Pattern recognition (in this case, recognizing the opening) is a large part of many types of expertise, including martial arts.

 

[geezer]

I had an instructor who often said that if an attack is really done right, it can't be countered.

I think he was correct. But doing it "right" is a pretty tough thing to do against a competent, resisting opponent. To be reliable, an attack has to be done at precisely the right moment on the right person with the right technique, power, speed and focus. Many great fighters are known for having one or two such techniques that they can set up and pull off seemingly at will.

However when an attack is less than perfect, every move has its counter. And if the counter is really done right it will succeed too!

BTW IMO the best counters, like the best attacks are simple and straightforward ...just exquisitely done.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if an attack is really done right, it can't be countered.

MA is like "the spear and shield" paradox that contradict to each other.

For example,

If you are a good wrestler, you should

- be able to get a "head lock" on your opponent whenever that you want to.
- not let anybody to get a "head lock" on you no matter how hard he may try.

Also,

If you are strong, when

- you get hold on your opponent, he should not be able to break away from your grips.
- your opponent gets hold on you, you should be able to break away his grip anytime that you want to.

When your opponent gets hold on one of your legs, and horse back kick your other leg off the ground, there won't be any counter after that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I had an instructor who often said that if an attack is really done right, it can't be countered.

I don't know that there's any such thing as an unstoppable attack. If you use the right thing against a given opponent/attacker, they might not be able to counter you, but someone else could in that same situation.

 

[geezer]

I don't know that there's any such thing as an unstoppable attack. If you use the right thing against a given opponent/attacker, they might not be able to counter you, but someone else could in that same situation.

Absolutely. The idea was for an attack to be done "right", it had not only had to be performed correctly, with technique, speed, power, focus, balance, etc. it also had to be applied judiciously. That is to say done when and where (and on whom) it would work. So like you said, there's no perfect attack or counter, there's really only the best you can do in any given situation.

Interestingly, the same guy was fond of describing the Wing Chun he taught as "obviously being invented by a woman, since no technique is totally committed, and you can always change your mind".

(Actually, I'm sure he really thought that the art was created by men, regardless of it's origin myth. This was just a little politically incorrect, old-country sexist humor used to illustrate a point about being fluid and able to flow seamlessly from one attack to the next. Kinda like flow drills in grappling).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Absolutely. The idea was for an attack to be done "right", it had not only had to be performed correctly, with technique, speed, power, focus, balance, etc. it also had to be applied judiciously. That is to say done when and where (and on whom) it would work. So like you said, there's no perfect attack or counter, there's really only the best you can do in any given situation.

Interestingly, the same guy was fond of describing the Wing Chun he taught as "obviously being invented by a woman, since no technique is totally committed, and you can always change your mind".

(Actually, I'm sure he really thought that the art was created by men, regardless of it's origin myth. This was just a little politically incorrect, old-country sexist humor used to illustrate a point about being fluid and able to flow seamlessly from one attack to the next. Kinda like flow drills in grappling).

Okay, I'm adding that to our student manual as the official description of WC.

 

[Paul_D]

- punches at your face, you can kick at his chest. Your leg is always longer than his arm.

As this thread has been initiated from a self defence point of view then I would have to ask how would that work? Self defence does not take place at fighting distance, self defence take place at “in your face” distance.

The rituals of violnce show us that criminals do not attack you from 5-6 feet away, they sucker punch you from 1-2 feet away, hence there will not be sufficient space for you to kick their chest.

Also, as the distance from their hand to your face is shorter than the distance from your foot to their chest, that means the moment you spot their sucker punch coming towards you, you then have to execute a chest kick, from start to finish, in less time than is left for the fist to finish it’s journey to your face. Which unless you are Neo, and this is The Matrix, I would find highly unlikely.

Perhaps if we are talking street fighting and someone is throwing exploratory jabs from 5-6 feet away, they yes, but as I say, we are talking self defence, not fighting.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As this thread has been initiated from a self defence point of view then I would have to ask how would that work? Self defence does not take place at fighting distance, self defence take place at “in your face” distance.

The rituals of violnce show us that criminals do not attack you from 5-6 feet away, they sucker punch you from 1-2 feet away, hence there will not be sufficient space for you to kick their chest.

Also, as the distance from their hand to your face is shorter than the distance from your foot to their chest, that means the moment you spot their sucker punch coming towards you, you then have to execute a chest kick, from start to finish, in less time than is left for the fist to finish it’s journey to your face. Which unless you are Neo, and this is The Matrix, I would find highly unlikely.

Perhaps if we are talking street fighting and someone is throwing exploratory jabs from 5-6 feet away, they yes, but as I say, we are talking self defence, not fighting.

In my experience, there are three rough groupings of SD scenarios. One is as you describe - a surprise attack from in-your-face distance. A bit more extreme than that is the complete surprise - an attack from outside your area of view by someone who hasn't overtly indicated their intent. Then there's the folks who posture a lot, but are afraid of getting hit. You can see this in a lot of videos of people attacking and getting into fights - many are afraid of getting hit, so they attack at the extreme of their own range, where they are least likely to get hit. I'll add into the third group (just because it's a similar distance) those who come in to "sucker punch" from the front or side from a distance - the big step-in haymaker.

You can't really have techniques for the second group (since, as I've defined it, we assume it's not recognized before it comes). You can (and should) have techniques for the other two. In fact, one of my students came to me because he has 8 years of Shotokan (which apparently worked almost exclusively on that third range), and wants some of our juicy inside work to give him better options if they get inside his comfort range.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As this thread has been initiated from a self defence point of view then I would have to ask how would that work? Self defence does not take place at fighting distance, self defence take place at “in your face” distance.

If you let a stranger to get into your kicking range, that will be your problem in the 1st place. If your opponent is already in your punching range, to wrap your opponent's punching arm will be a better option.

You have 2 options,

1. conservative approach - keep your opponent to be outside of your kicking range.
2. aggressive approach - pull your opponent into your clinching range and take him down ASAP.

 

[drop bear]

As this thread has been initiated from a self defence point of view then I would have to ask how would that work? Self defence does not take place at fighting distance, self defence take place at “in your face” distance.

The rituals of violnce show us that criminals do not attack you from 5-6 feet away, they sucker punch you from 1-2 feet away, hence there will not be sufficient space for you to kick their chest.

Also, as the distance from their hand to your face is shorter than the distance from your foot to their chest, that means the moment you spot their sucker punch coming towards you, you then have to execute a chest kick, from start to finish, in less time than is left for the fist to finish it’s journey to your face. Which unless you are Neo, and this is The Matrix, I would find highly unlikely.

Perhaps if we are talking street fighting and someone is throwing exploratory jabs from 5-6 feet away, they yes, but as I say, we are talking self defence, not fighting.

At some point they were 5 to 6 feet away.

Where is that video of angry English tatoo guy. Because he said it.

"they didn't teleport there"

 

[RTKDCMB]

Define 'complicated". What seems complicated to some may seem simple to others.

 

[Aiki Lee]

So when I'm thinking counter: I'm thinking of

"you’re taught specific self defense counters. If he does this, you do that. When he grabs your wrist you do one defense, when he grabs your shoulder you do another defense. Well in sport fighting and in class, with a willing partner these appear to work. But the times you will be attacked – after a long day of work when you’re thinking about your daily grind and you find yourself faced with a threat, you will not be able to recall your complicated “self defense counters” when you move into fight or flight mode."

This is a direct quote from one of the things I have seen.

Personally I find this view of training to be extremely limited. Training should be principle oriented and not technique oriented. One should look for what is the best technical concept not specific technique for the situation. Muscle memory, as people have mentioned, will aid in responding correctly without having to consciously think about each individual step of the movement.
Most skills some people considered complicated are not that complicated if practiced regularly. All the skills I've practiced may seem complicated at first glance, but that is only because it hasn't been practiced enough. The whole point of martial training is to eliminate wasted movement and execute a decisive and effective action. Accomplish this by practicing awareness, reaction speed, and training to attain the state of mushin.

 

[drop bear]

A whole bunch of simple stuff you can work under pressure. Like keeping your hands up or punching straight. And you train it as technique so that you can use it automatically. This means you can use it a bit faster and a bit less processing ability.

Then while your hands are up and are punching straight. You have a bit of time and space to think about other things like tactics and creating circumstances that may give you advantage.

Counters don't work if they are all you have.

Complicated is kind of the wrong way to express this idea I think. But I understand why your multi part arm block counter throw works fine with your compliant partner but then dosent work in sparring. There are these time and space issues.

You probably won't have the time and space during a flat knacker assault to achieve anything like this.

 

[JP3]

At some point they were 5 to 6 feet away.

Where is that video of angry English tatoo guy. Because he said it.

"they didn't teleport there"

..... that's right.

Control the combative interval, control the fight. Mai ai, whatever you call it. One of the best things you can learn is how to control this distance (ala Golden Boy Oscar dde la Hoya, it's why he was so good).

Granted, you just miss your cues, and bad guy is already in there... to you, it is effectively a teleport, since you didn't notice them coming in, right... That's bad. Personally, it's grab and get down time, but lots of folks are very uncomfortable with the contact involved, so... *shrug*