Controversy in FMA?

[Brian R. VanCise]

Let's ring in the New Year with a little controversial thread.

Is there one indigienous superior FMA?

Due you have to be a Filipino to be the best at FMA?

If you are a GrandMaster or a Punong Guro are you selling out
by accepting money for teaching people?

Have the Filipino Martial Arts been influenced by their former
Spanish occupiers?

Are the Filipino Martial Arts the premier weapon based systems
in the world?

What about someone cross ranking over to another art after only a
practice or two?

Okay just a few questions and anyone else can add more if they so choose. I hope this thread will be met with good intentions as that is what MartialTalk is all about! We are not here to bash or belittle anyone but instead explore people's varied opinon's.

 

[tellner]

Is there one indigienous superior FMA?

No. If there were nobody would be doing anything else by now.

Due you have to be a Filipino to be the best at FMA?

There's a word my wife learned when she was growing up in East Africa, kasumba. It's the reflexive feeling of inferiority that the former colonials feel towards the former colonists. It often comes with a burning desire to compensate by finding something to feel superior at. So yes, you have to be Filipino to be the best at FMA the same way you have to be Jewish to be shrewd at business, White to be fully human, Chinese to be cultured, Black to have rhythm or any similar racist crap.

If you are a GrandMaster or a Punong Guro are you selling out
by accepting money for teaching people?

The art may be free, but your time has to be worth something.

Have the Filipino Martial Arts been influenced by their former
Spanish occupiers?

Probably. Pretty much everything else was.

Are the Filipino Martial Arts the premier weapon based systems
in the world?

Not even close. The Hungarians and Mongols are infinitely better with the bow. The Japanese are absolutely superior with the slightly curved two handed sword and the halberd. The Filipino martial arts suck hind teat at the techniques of mounted warfare. The Europeans developed the use of the one handed straight thrust-and-cut sword to an extremely high degree.

What about someone cross ranking over to another art after only a
practice or two?

Huh? I'm having trouble parsing that sentence.

Okay just a few questions and anyone else can add more if they so choose. I hope this thread will be met with good intentions as that is what MartialTalk is all about! We are not here to bash or belittle anyone but instead explore people's varied opinon's.

If the "varied opinions" include anything about the ineffable inherent superiority of Filipino-ness it can be tossed without opening the same way you ignore the ravings of the Klan and the NOI.

 

[MJS]

Let's ring in the New Year with a little controversial thread.

You trouble maker you!

Is there one indigienous superior FMA?

Of course...the IMAF, Inc. All kidding aside, I think that while they all come from the same roots, in their own way, they're all unique. Some may have more of a focus on a particular aspect though, such as Sayoc, which seems to me, focuses alot on the blade. Now, PT has alot of blade work and there is some in Modern Arnis as well. But as I said, IMO, some may focus more than others.

Due you have to be a Filipino to be the best at FMA?

Not at all. There are many non-Filipino teachers that have much to offer, some of which are right here on this forum and some that I've met personally.

If you are a GrandMaster or a Punong Guro are you selling out
by accepting money for teaching people?

I'm far from a GM. But I'll change this slightly. Should a GM or PG sell out by taking money? People take money for services all the time. I'd say you'd be more of a sell out if you were taking the money and running.

Have the Filipino Martial Arts been influenced by their former
Spanish occupiers?

Sure.

Are the Filipino Martial Arts the premier weapon based systems
in the world?

The more I see non Filipino weapon work, the more I have to say yes. IMHO, the FMAs specialize in weapon work. Is there good weapon work in other arts? I'm sure there is, but if someone really wants to get deep into the fine points, why would I want to look at another art other than the FMAs? If I want to grappler better, I'm not going to go to a TKD school. I'm going to go to a BJJ, Judo, Sambo or wrestling school. Nothing against TKD, just using that as an example.

What about someone cross ranking over to another art after only a
practice or two?

Nope. The average person can't even get the basics down, never mind being ranked in an art.


Nice thread Brian!

 

[tellner]

My specific examples aside, the FMAs are not head and shoulders above other cultures' weapons arts even in general. Indonesia, Malaysia and the whole huge continent of Africa just to name a few still have excellent weapons traditions. And that includes the weapons the FMA specialize in - short knives, batons, big knives, staves and so on.

The FMA are better known largely because of historical accidents. And they are very good. But no, you can't honestly say that they are superior to everything else. And not all FMA are created equal. There's plenty of "Karate with a stick" out there from the PI.

 

[MJS]

My specific examples aside, the FMAs are not head and shoulders above other cultures' weapons arts even in general. Indonesia, Malaysia and the whole huge continent of Africa just to name a few still have excellent weapons traditions. And that includes the weapons the FMA specialize in - short knives, batons, big knives, staves and so on.

The FMA are better known largely because of historical accidents. And they are very good. But no, you can't honestly say that they are superior to everything else. And not all FMA are created equal. There's plenty of "Karate with a stick" out there from the PI.

For myself, I really havent seen much weapon work from the arts you mention, as a) I don't study those arts, and b) I'm not as familiar with them as you or someone else may be. If I saw some, would it change my mind? Possibly.

I'm mostly basing my opinion on the arts that I have seen and that I'm familiar with. That being said, going on just that alone, I stand by my original statement.

 

[tellner]

Fair enough. If you haven't seen it you can't comment on it.

My opinion is based on experience with these other things as well as FMA and the reports of people who have serious Filipino Martial Arts skills as well as work with the other systems.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Let's ring in the New Year with a little controversial thread.

Well is this the New year based upon the Winter Solstice (* Northern Hemisphere *), the first day of the first month following the Solstice? The Chinese Lunar Calendar which will be coming up? The Spring Equinox (* Once again Northern Hemisphere *), the 15th or March as some also celebrated, or the first day of the first month following the Spring Equinox? (* AKA April Fool's Day as the Christians called the Pagans who danced in the street naked on this day in celebration of the new year. *)

Just adding my own twist to the controversy.

Is there one indigienous superior FMA?

Not in my opinion. It is always up to the the individual person.

Due you have to be a Filipino to be the best at FMA?

I have run into this many times. There are many who are Filipino who were either made that I trained in an FMA or if I had rank in one and or thought I could teach such an art without being born Filipino. I find this insulting. Yet I have seen this with in the KMA's as well when I would attend a tournament to watch and see the Korean's take over even if they had less rank and change things around to just change it. In the FMA's I teach and study, there are some who would learn from the Filipino instructors I had but would not learn from me when the instructor was no longer able to teach.

If you are a GrandMaster or a Punong Guro are you selling out
by accepting money for teaching people?

No you are not selling out. Most of this comes from jealousy. So that those who do not have the money or are poor are getting upset that others are making money. I know it is not polite in Filipino culture to open a present that is given as it may seem greedy, but they are human just like the rest of us and all have the same failures as the rest of humanity.

Have the Filipino Martial Arts been influenced by their former
Spanish occupiers?

I would say yes. Some of the sword work, and the fact that Spanish outlawed the open practice of the arts, so many hid the arts in dance and plays and even to the optimizing of stick work for dueling versus sword work.

Are the Filipino Martial Arts the premier weapon based systems
in the world?

This is difficult as stated above it depends upon the person not the art or system. As there are some other cultures who still use weapons/tools in every day usage as they do in the PI, I cannot speak to the effectiveness of them in general or specifically. I do know that in other cultures there were ritualistic fights, where in the PI it was kept more random and testing ground even during the Golden Age of Escrima in Cebu with the stick fights and challenges.

As to firearms, these are weapons as well and one could argue the old west had better weapons training then. But not many true gun fighters survived to pass on their systems. The same is true of the main European sword arts, while there are some good fencing schools, would they stand up to someone not playing by those rules? I think it would depend upon the person once again. The same is true with Japanese sword work in my opinion.

Now this is not an insult to these other cultures and arts. The issue I believe is that it always comes down the individual, but there is something about training methods of the FMA's that seem to increase the learning curve upfront. Of course the individual still has to make it their own before they can apply it.

What about someone cross ranking over to another art after only a
practice or two?

If it was an issue of the systems being real close brothers or cousins as in they had a similar teacher lineage the reunited a generation or two back, it is possible to recognize people in such arts as they are most likely very similar and still training alike. While if they are mildly different systems, one could see it going one way and not the other depending upon depending upon the arts and of course the skill set of the person involved. With very different systems I wold find it much harder to see this cross ranking.

Okay just a few questions and anyone else can add more if they so choose. I hope this thread will be met with good intentions as that is what MartialTalk is all about! We are not here to bash or belittle anyone but instead explore people's varied opinon's.

Hopefully I have not bashed anyone and or gotten myself into trouble.

 

[Carol]

Let's ring in the New Year with a little controversial thread.

Hmm...wish I thought of that before I made a pledge to give up coffee for the year. Just kidding! :lol:

Is there one indigienous superior FMA?

I doubt it, but personally I feel the instructor is more important than the actual art itself.

Due you have to be a Filipino to be the best at FMA?

I don't personally believe so.

If you are a GrandMaster or a Punong Guro are you selling out
by accepting money for teaching people?

Simply by accepting money, no I don't think that is selling out. But if the art gets watered down and weakened by someone that prefers higher profits over martial strength, I think that is selling out.

Have the Filipino Martial Arts been influenced by their former
Spanish occupiers?

Absolutely. The terminology and the dueling aspects seem to show the strongest influence, IMO.

Are the Filipino Martial Arts the premier weapon based systems
in the world?

The FMAs are among the best for teaching practical weapons in modern situations...but whether a system can be considered premier depends largely on the instructor and expectations of the student.

What about someone cross ranking over to another art after only a
practice or two?

All the more reason to ask A LOT of questions before paying someone to be your instructor.

Okay just a few questions and anyone else can add more if they so choose. I hope this thread will be met with good intentions as that is what MartialTalk is all about! We are not here to bash or belittle anyone but instead explore people's varied opinon's.

All good

 

[Danny T]

Is there one indigienous superior FMA?

No, there are only superior individuals using the training systems. There are to many other variables which influence the outcome of any engagement to say one is superior over all the others.

Due you have to be a Filipino to be the best at FMA?

Do you have to be American to be the best baseball team? Do you have to be European to be the best soccer team or player? Of course not!

If you are a GrandMaster or a Punong Guro are you selling out by accepting money for teaching people?

The passing on of the art and the building of the martial artist is free. It is the time you are paying for.

Have the Filipino Martial Arts been influenced by their former Spanish occupiers?

Hard to believe they would not be, after all they were under Spanish occupation and rule for 330 years and Spanish influence is in all other aspects of their culture.

Are the Filipino Martial Arts the premier weapon based systems in the world?

Maybe for bladed type training but premier weapon based, I can not agree with this. When it comes to long range weapons they are lagging just a bit. When was the last time you heard of a Filipino missile system. As to weapon based the FMA systems are much more likely to have the trainee using weapons in a close quarter engagement much sooner than most other training systems. I was certainly using weapons in a very short time of training when in the US military and as was all those others training with me. We all became quite proficient in a very short time span of weeks and not years of training.

What about someone cross ranking over to another art after only a practice or two?

Until as of late there was no ‘ranking’ in most of the FMA systems. Many of the arts are very similar while others are not. If it is of arts that are similar and one has the understanding and “abilities” to function within the arts, I see no problem with it. What is rank any way? Politics aside, it is a standard of knowledge and abilities within the group you are with. Nothing more nothing less. It isn’t a title or a badge of superiority. It simply means the person with whatever rank has a certain level of knowledge and skill associated with that rank. Politics makes rank a title.

Okay just a few questions and anyone else can add more if they so choose. I hope this thread will be met with good intentions as that is what MartialTalk is all about! We are not here to bash or belittle anyone but instead explore people's varied opinon's.

Who gave all these "masters and grandmasters" their "Rank"? For the most part no one. Most learned from their familes and there was no rank. They started teaching others what they knew so suddenly they are a master or grandmaster. It is all a bit foolish as far as I am concerned. It is more of one upmanship than anything else. When it comes to fighting and having to defend ones self it does not matter who you trained with or for how long nor does it matter what your rank is with them what matters is what "YOU" are able to do right then! Can you function at real time against someone who is trying to hurt you or kill you? There is your mastership and rank.

But it does provide interesting conversation.

Danny

 

[Cruentus]

OK...I'll play...

Is there one indigienous superior FMA?

Yes; the one that works best for you and gets you the best results.

Due you have to be a Filipino to be the best at FMA?

WTF!? No!

If you are a GrandMaster or a Punong Guro are you selling out
by accepting money for teaching people?

Uh... No? If your providing a good service you have every right to charge for it...

Have the Filipino Martial Arts been influenced by their former
Spanish occupiers?

Yes. To say no to that would be to ignore a whole lot of historical evidence..

Are the Filipino Martial Arts the premier weapon based systems
in the world?

No. I think it is up there though with the best.

What about someone cross ranking over to another art after only a
practice or two?

Not touching this one, because rank is basically gay.

Okay just a few questions and anyone else can add more if they so choose. I hope this thread will be met with good intentions as that is what MartialTalk is all about! We are not here to bash or belittle anyone but instead explore people's varied opinon's.

Here is one: has FMA stagnated over the last 5 years, or is it still growing?

 

[tellner]

Not touching this one, because rank is basically gay.

Nah. Rank is about breeding rights. That makes it heterosexual.

Here is one: has FMA stagnated over the last 5 years, or is it still growing?

I'm pretty sure there are more people practicing FMA of some sort than there were five years ago.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Here is one: has FMA stagnated over the last 5 years, or is it still growing?

I think it is growing by small incremental steps actually. (though I would say that some may be regressing as well) The integration process overall still is continuing and FMA practitioner's are open minded and will integrate things generally as they see fit. I particularly have seen some different stuff in the past five years or so and also found the correlation between firearms and tactical flashlight work, etc. with the FMA.

 

[MJS]

Are the Filipino Martial Arts the premier weapon based systems
in the world?

I think for the sake of discussion, we should clarify exactly what weapons we're talking about here. Now, there are some TMAs out there that use the bo, tonfa, sai, kama and sword, to name a few.

Now, for myself, I've done some forms and have some experience with some of the above named weapons, but for me, its solely for the traditional value. Who walks around with any of those weapons today? If you did, you'd most likely be spending time in jail.

Yet, we can spend time people watching, and I'd bet that many of the males walking by, have a folder clipped to their belt. A stick can be translated to any short, blunt, impact weapon, ie: tire iron.

Many arts, contain stick and blade work, but its not really the primary focus. Kenpo has club and blade disarms, yet I don't consider it a weapon based art per se.

That being said, that is why I feel that the FMAs are up there with the best, if not the best when it comes to those weapons. Do the Indonesian arts have weapons? Don't know, as I don't study one. I think for the sake of discussion, it would be interesting to hear a bit more in depth, about those arts and how much blade/stick work comes into play.

 

[MJS]

Here is one: has FMA stagnated over the last 5 years, or is it still growing?

Nope, its definately growing.

 

[Stan]

Let's ring in the New Year with a little controversial thread.

Is there one indigienous superior FMA?

No more than there is one superior martial art in general. There are better and worse. I don't think ALL arts are equal. But there is no best, and even a top ten would be nearly impossible.

Due you have to be a Filipino to be the best at FMA?

Of course not. It's a skill. I've seen many immigrants who speak English better than I do. None of my FMA teachers are Filipino. If that were really important to me, I would have sought out a Filipino teacher.

On the other hand, I work with a lot of Filipino Americans (mostly first generation), and when I tell them about Modern Arnis, they're interested, to a point. They like that I study, and are a little flattered, but are disappointed that the classes aren't taught by and filled with Filipinos, and that we don't use exculsively Tagalog (or Spanish) terms.

Coming from an art like Modern Arnis, which Professor Presas tailored to Americans while he taught in America, I think that culture is less a part of my training. While I'm not saying that Modern Arnis ignores Filipino culture, there are many programs in North America which are more physically focused. While I never believe that Filipino ethnicity is required, in some arts a knowledge of native culture outside of the immediate trappings of the art is more important than in other arts.

That said, in the Aikido dojo I attend we try to be as Japanese as is practical, even though there are no ethnic Japanese in the class. Tradition and culture are very important in that art.

If you are a GrandMaster or a Punong Guro are you selling out
by accepting money for teaching people?

Not at all. Only if you are cheating, exploiting, defrauding or extorting from them.

Have the Filipino Martial Arts been influenced by their former
Spanish occupiers?

Most definitely. Althought this is one of the toughest issues around, and will probably never be fleshed out completely. What astounds me though is the amount of discussion that occurs in the FMA community on this subject without ever referring back to the Western (Spanish) Martial Arts in a knowledgeable way. I currently study 17th century English broadsword (among too many other things ) and there are distinct similarities to what I have learned in Modern Arnis.

I think the issue should be explored, and it can lead to insights for both Filipino and Spanish martial artists. A basic respect for the legitimacy of the Western arts is required as a starting point. Often people assume the claim is that the FMA are influenced primarily by Spanish rapier fencing (probably not, IMO), and that rapier fencing looked like modern epee fencing (which it absolutely didn't). This is speculation, and maybe someone can chime in with some more concrete, documented evidence, but if there was Spanish influence on the FMAs, it probably would have been from soldiers who used a broasword or short sword style, not rapier. This makes much more sense, given that I have not seen the methodical point work, distance and single time actions of rapier fencing anywhere else, including in the Filipino stick or blade arts.

Are the Filipino Martial Arts the premier weapon based systems
in the world?

They're up there. In the modern context, I believe they are successful because of their easy learning curve and their adaptability. Most Filipino martial artists, even masters, won't take offense if someone adapts stick and sword concepts and movements to a keychain baton or a travel wrench. The conceptual, rather than rote approach makes them adaptable to weapons that people actually do use. Also, if I had only a year to make someone capable with weapons, a Filipino style would definitely be my choice. This is not to say, by any means, that Filipino systems are simplistic or without subtlety. Only that they start teaching practical concepts from very early on, and then get to the finer things later.

In thirty years, if things continue to go well in the Western Martial Arts, the FMA's may have some competition. It's really astounding how quickly the European arts are advancing in their revival, and (knock on wood) how relatively free of politics they have been. It's really a very constructive environment. Many people who are not familiar would be astounded to see how capable a system like Fiore dei Liberi's is all the way from long sword to dagger grappling.

What about someone cross ranking over to another art after only a
practice or two?

Every student must decide on their own whether and when to practice another art, if this is what you mean. They will get the rank they earn, if their lineages are legitimate. If you mean someone inexperienced starting a new system, then this is totally wrong.

Okay just a few questions and anyone else can add more if they so choose. I hope this thread will be met with good intentions as that is what MartialTalk is all about! We are not here to bash or belittle anyone but instead explore people's varied opinon's.

 

[Cruentus]

Nah. Rank is about breeding rights. That makes it heterosexual.

lol!

I'm pretty sure there are more people practicing FMA of some sort than there were five years ago.

I agree, I was just putting it out there...

 

[thekuntawman]

i will put my comments next to the questions,

Let's ring in the New Year with a little controversial thread.

Is there one indigienous superior FMA?

of course there is. i can prove it to you. this is one part of filipino culture you have to understand. all the friendly, hands-holding, humble kwi chang kang stuff is not the filipino culture. all of us here on MT loves the filipino martial arts because (we say) its effective. am i right? so what is wrong saying "i have a superior style"? if you have not found a better way to do it, and you dont feel like you can take any man out there, you should not be teaching the art. you see, this is how the FMA became the art we have today, each master tries out his art against the next guy, he changes what he need to change, he developed a better way, then he declares that he had a better more effective way. if a man cannot guarantee that he can teach you to fight anyone, dont study from him. either he is weak, too weak to admit he can fight, afraid to say he is a superior style, or afraid somebody is going to say, prove it to me. well, this "humble" is someone elses culture. our masters do not call themself "master" unless he has proven to himself that he knows his stuff.

Due you have to be a Filipino to be the best at FMA?

of course not. but to truly understand this art, you must understand the culture. i dont care how strong or tough you think you are with your FMA already, you can become stronger if you take the time to learn how the culture and the art are connected. you cant learn this on video, a magazine, a book, dam sure not a seminar, but you have to study under a teacher who can teach it to you. and you know what? you dont have to go the philippines. some people goes there for a two week trip a couple times, and he raised his head over other people. thats not going to do it either. you need full time study.

If you are a GrandMaster or a Punong Guro are you selling out by accepting money for teaching people?

if you are calling yourself grandmaster or punong guro, and you do not require your students to pay his dues to become an expert in the art, yes you are selling out. there is no crime for charging money, people gotta eat. but when a man can get "certfied" to teach your art, and you dont have this kind of confidence that you would bet your money on him, you sell out your students. when you back up a student by giving him a rank, you have guaranteed to the world that, this guy knows his stuff.

i want to tell a story about one of my teachers, Boggs Lao. one time another teacher came to visit Boggs while students were training. the other master, who was young walked in the door with some students, and told Boggs i am a new teacher and i want to show our skills. do you have some students we can fight with. Boggs was reading a book or paper, and he told him to "pick someone to fight with". the other teacher said, who is your black belters (we wear shorts in this class), and Boggs said, doesnt matter pick someone. the guy and his students fought with all of us. some beat us, some got beat, even him. the man thanks Boggs and left. after that he asked one of my kuya (older brothers) "how did they do?" (he never watched us fight). and he told him, they're okay. maybe 6 months later i asked him, why didnt he watch us fight. boggs said, if i am a good teacher, and you are a good students, i have nothing to worry about. then he gave me a lecture about responsible martial arts teacher. see, you always train your boys so you always have confidence. ernesto presas is this way. my granpa was this way, and now i am this way. some teachers, they dont care. they say, "martial artist is not about fighting". oh yeah? since when?

Have the Filipino Martial Arts been influenced by their former Spanish occupiers?

yes, FMA is influenced by everybody, even US soldiers. in 1988, we use to practice to fight against bigger stronger opponents. the schools that are near a base do this. many schools do not, they dont even see americans in their tournaments. you will find kung fu, tae kwon do, judo all kinds of arts in the philippines. there is a saying, that your opponents will be your reputation, not your friends. so i wold say, that the spanish and the portugese have to be the biggest influenced. even japanese, you can see this in kuntaw lima lima which used shorin ryu forms, arjuken which used shotokan forms, and kyosho arnis, which used kyukushinkai forms.

Are the Filipino Martial Arts the premier weapon based systems
in the world?

yes. many of these so-called WMA guys was arnis at one time, so they met some irish or french or english stick fighting books, or they saw national georgraphic african style looks neat, so they "switched" over. i dont blame them. we always want to believe our culture is great. but when i see some ex-FMA guy who wants to bash filipino arts (especially that some of them wasnt that good at FMA), it will piss me off. but there, you have the difference in culture, many of these guys will "prove it" with his website and in HIS seminars (MR "X"), i will do it in person. but if somebody wants to say his country style is better, good for him, he is suppose to say it. maybe there is better ways of fighting in other countries. but i will believe it when i see it.

and another difference in how we do things. when some people see a new interesting way of fighting, they will say, i have to learn it. the hard-core FMA philippine style, he's going to say "that stuff not going to work on me". and if it does, that means i have to train harder and drawing board. if it keeps happening, then i have to learn it. this is the filipino way. we dont get dominated easy.

What about someone cross ranking over to another art after only a
practice or two?

i hope theres nobody older than 10 years old who still thinks that. but i forgot where we are. yes they do it in the martial arts all the time, called the "intensive" seminar, or "crash course". i have friends who teach this way and i get in there *** about it, that's selling out. but you know, each person in the martial arts has a place. some people are in the food chain, some people are the food. i dont know, if i was not so serious about my reputation and i have a guy who is not serious about training, i might make a little money selling confidence. the mcdojo do it all the time! anyway, thats crazy, but the FMA is the world perfect "add-water-mcdojo". its so bad people think theres something wrong if you dont certify, dont teach drills, etc...

Okay just a few questions and anyone else can add more if they so choose. I hope this thread will be met with good intentions as that is what MartialTalk is all about! We are not here to bash or belittle anyone but instead explore people's varied opinon's.

that was good, and i dont think we can talk about this enough, because everybody looks at the art different, and i dont think enough filipino teachers want to disagree with what most people think. so, we end up that we allow people to think the wrong thing about our cultural art and fighting arts.