Chung Do Kwan Forms

Zepp

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Since the style of Tae Kwon Do I train is a bit different than most, I'm a bit curious about the origins of the forms we use. Our Grandmaster, Mr. Duk Sung Son, was the head of the Chung Do Kwan school in Korea for a brief time before he left for the U.S., but due to politics (and an apparent falling out with General Choi, one of the KTF's main founders) he wasn't involved in the unification of the kwans. If the forms I list below sound familiar to you, let me know. I'd be curious to compare notes. (Some of the forms originated in Shotokan I believe).

White Belt- Kukmu 1 and Kukmu 2. These two forms are completely symmetrical an both consist of just simple blocks and hand techniques. (There are other Kukmu's, but they're just used for exhibiton now, and it's hard to find someone who knows them).

Yellow Belt- Pyong an 1 and Pyong an 2. The Pyong an's were originally supposed to end and begin in the same spot on the floor, but the Grandmaster let that requirment go somewhere along the line. 1 is similar to the Kukmu's. 2 is the first form to get weird. It's starts with square arm blocks out to each side.

Green Belt- Pyong an 2 (again) and Pyong an 3.

Purple Belt- Pyong an 4 and Pyong an 5. 4 starts with the square blocks out to each side, but with open hands. 5 has a jump as though you were landing on an opponent and has two groin grabbing moves near the end.

Brown belt- Chul gi 1 and Pal sek. The Chul gi forms (which I believe come from Shotokan) are all done mostly in a horse stance. Pal sek is a really long form that you start by falling forward. We practice it with 43 counts.

1st Dan- Ship soo (I think I've seen this mentioned somewhere on these boards before) and Chul gi 2. Does the Ship soo you guys mentioned start with that weird scissors motion? This whole form really works the arms and shoulders.

That's as far as I've done myself. I've also seen:

Yan bi- a sword form that no longer has a sword in it.

Ja un (I'm certain I'm mispronouncing it, but oh well.)- This is a crazy enough form for the 3rd Dans. At 4th Dan, they teach you an additional 10 moves or so. It ends with 5 (I think) sidekicks.

I know my descriptions aren't terribly informative. Questions are welcome as well as information.
 

karatekid1975

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I trained in Tang Soo Do, which did the pyong forms (color belt forms from 7th gup to 4th or 3rd gup, I think.), and Sip Soo (for black belt, but was later dropped). I never heard of the others.

My new TKD school does WTF forms till BB, than it does the same forms as TSD.
 
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Zepp

Zepp

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Yup, those are our Pyong an forms! And Ship soo too! :)
Ours are done a bit differently though. And with more emphasis on power (though I realize those vids were meant to be seen by those who don't know the form yet).

That answers that question. Thank you.
 
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fissure

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All of the Pyong an forms you use are the same (minor differences only) as Japanese Heian and Okinowan(s.p?) Pinan.
Chul gi forms are the Tekki series also known as Naihanchi.Pal Sek ( we call it Bal Sek) is Bassai/Passai, probably the most widly practiced form in MAs!
These are the forms that were used in TKD prior to the Koreans changing their forms in an effort to distance TKD from Japanese MA. Most quality TKD dojang will teach these forms along with the newer Taeguek/Palgwae series.
Ship Soo (Sip Soo), is the most interesting to me. I havn't found a non- Korean art that uses it.The intial series of
that weird scissors motion
you mention is a very effective trapping/twisting and joint attacking (right knife striking motion) series against a grabbing attack to your right wrist.Make sure your instructor shows you the application of the movements in your forms at the appropriote time (belt/knowledge level), in this and all of you poomse/hyung.
The site that KK1975 mentioned is good for general viewing, but please don't model your tech. after these examples!!!:eek:
 
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Zepp

Zepp

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Thanks for the info. fissure. :)

My instructor does a pretty good job usually of showing us what the moves in forms are. I gave the descriptions that I gave for the sake of simplicity. And since every style tends to change the same forms around a little, I tend to model my technique on that of my instructor. But the advice is appreciated.
 
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Yossarian75

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Ship Soo (Sip Soo), is the most interesting to me. I havn't found a non- Korean art that uses it

This form is practiced in Karate(Shotokan for sure) with the name Jitte/Jutte which also means ten hands. There are some differences(opening moves) and the rythm is different.
 
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Zepp

Zepp

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There are naturally going to be some differences in the moves depending on the style you're in.

For example, the form Bassai (we call it Pal-Sek) on that page: In the WTA, we start it off by falling forward (as though you've been pushed from behind). Master McHenry seems to start it with a step.

In Ship soo, he performs a series of steps with palm heel strikes coming from the side; we do what's basically a palm heel uppercut.

That's just very few of the differences I noticed.

-Zepp
 
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Yossarian75

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Ive noticed a few differences in Master Mcherys forms too, although I practice Tang Soo Do I belong to a different organisation. Our version of Bassai has the falling forward part instead of the step and the side kick part is a bit different. our Sip Soo has three cresent kicks in it when you perform the three 90 degree double high blocks(after the jump), he also perfoms all of the Hyung a bit faster than what we do.

here is a site which cross references Korean/Okinawan/Japanese forms

http://www.geocities.com/david_a_hacker/MartialArts/matab.html
 
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Zepp

Zepp

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He's doing it fast?!

Heh. It seems we've found a major difference right there. We do all of our forms much faster than Master McHenry there.

Which isn't a boast. I understand the advantages of practicing forms slowly. It's just that being able to get power into all the moves along with lightening speed is a major requirement for promotion with us.
 
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IMAA

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My particular school I attend is reffered to as American TaeKwonDo. However, I have heard it called Korean Karate, and American Karate... I prefer to refer to it as American Karate for its more use of Japanese influence, rather than Korean influence.

Anyway our forms/kata we do are these:

WHITE: Basic 1,2,3 (aka. keecho illbu, Yibu, Sanbu in Korean/ Tekki's in Shotokan)
YELLOW: Do-san( which i've come to find out its the same form as Won Hyo in Korean I believe WTF system)
BLUE: Pyon 1 , 2
Green: Pyon 3
Purple: Pyon 4
For some reason we dont do Pyon 5
BROWN:Nihanchisho , bo kata's Susho/Sunokunsho (sp)
Black: Bassai Sho
and thats it, no more kata from there unless you want to learn by exploring on your own...

Now from my understanding's, After Japan's occupation of Korea, Japanese colonial rule tightened its grip on the Korean economy and the people. Its purpose was to suppress the Korean populace and to erase the Korean identity. And there for is the reason why our school is called TKD however it uses a more Japanese structure, in terminology and to me resembles that of Shotokan. Koreans were forbidden to speak their own language, only the Japanese language could to be spoken. The Korean language press was banned and a Japanese educational curriculum was imposed on all Korean schools. This meant that all Korean schoolboys were taught the sportive forms of Japanese Judo and Kendo, not the Korean martial arts. However, even this training came to an abrupt end in 1909 when the Japanese banned the practice of any fighting arts in Korea for the next 36 years, until near the end of World War II.


Thanks...
IMAA
 
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aricept

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Originally posted by IMAA
My particular school I attend is reffered to as American TaeKwonDo. However, I have heard it called Korean Karate, and American Karate... I prefer to refer to it as American Karate for its more use of Japanese influence, rather than Korean influence.


From what I can tell, at least from the form names below, your style at least had a stay in Korea, as most of the names are Korean.

WHITE: Basic 1,2,3 (aka. keecho illbu, Yibu, Sanbu in Korean/ Tekki's in Shotokan)

Actually, I think you may have the names wrong. The Tekki forms are all done side to side, in horse stance, and called Naihanchi or Chulgi in Korean. The Keecho/Kicho forms are very different, from my understanding. Traditionally, in some styles (not Korean ones that I know of), the Tekki/Chulgi forms are learned first. For most, however, they come much later, as yours do when learning Naihanchisho - Naihanchi 1.

YELLOW: Do-san( which i've come to find out its the same form as Won Hyo in Korean I believe WTF system)
BLUE: Pyon 1 , 2

Unless one of your forms has been greatly changed, Do-San is very different from Won-Hyo. Both are practiced by the ITF. Won-Hyo is almost exactly the same as Pyong An 2. It starts with a "square" or "box" block to the left, with the left arm performing a middle level block, and the right arm performing an upper block so that the arms form a box around the head.

This may be your Pyon 1, depending on your lineage, but is probably Pyon 2. The Korean name is usually Pyong An, or Pyong Ahn, or something along those lines. The Okinawan name is Pinan, and the Japanese name is Heian.

Green: Pyon 3
Purple: Pyon 4
For some reason we dont do Pyon 5

Oooh... you should try to learn the 5th form. There are so many applications in that form... and it's a lot of fun to perform, if you can stick that jump.

BROWN:Nihanchisho , bo kata's Susho/Sunokunsho (sp)
Black: Bassai Sho
and thats it, no more kata from there unless you want to learn by exploring on your own...

Do you know what your lineage is? Like who your teacher's teacher was, and so on? You have an interesting form set here.

Nathan
 
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IMAA

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Upon reviewing your post. I think you are very correct I didnt elaborate very well on what I was trying to post earlier... Let me see if I can sum this up a bit more understandable......

Our first set of basic kata is called Basic 1, 2, 3...In the American TKD school In which I know study in. When I studied in Chung Do Kwan TKD about 4 or 5 yrs ago at a seperate school in a seperate city, we ran the same forms but they were called Keecho Ill bu (1) Keecho Yi bu (2) and Keecho San bu (3)....

To make a long story short. I started Karate in 1986 at the age of 14 in the present town I live in now. After I left for the Army in 1991 I earned Black belt level in that rank. I never knew much about our lineage there. Upon trying to continue training I never could find another school like the one I started in, So I trained for a few years in a Chung Do Kwan TKD school learning all that school had to offer. We practiced the Palgwe forms there as well as the other forms Either ITF or WTF I never could understand which set was called which. But it was the ones with ChonJi, Won Hyo, Do-San, TanGun, Yul Kok, ToiGye, Koryo, Po-un forms all in that one CDKTKD school.... Well upon returning after many years to my hometown, I decided to start training once again in the school Im with now, The Sensei there and my old Sensei from1986 was basically teaching the same system. Except One refered to it as American Karate and the other refers to it as AMerican TKD. So thats confusing enough. But to analize the Kata situation.... the one that I was talking about...

Won Hyo/DOSAN/TOESAN... Okay this is confusing... get ready... still I have no answer for this...

In my old / Curent system, we run a form called TOESAN, it is called that however in the True sense of the form name it is the same form that I learnt as WON HYO in CDKTKD....follow me so far. Okay! well in the CDKTKD school I learnt DOSAN but it was the traditional kata DoSan... now the name is spelled different between the two systems... TOESAN/ DOSAN...two complete different kata....make any sense, because Im totally confused on it myself. My current sensei does not understand what I was telling him when I was trying to explain this to him, so I ran the two forms showng him and he said it was possible that a long time ago when the original teacher was taught the kata he may have been taught wrong and hence he just carried the name all these years.... thats just one idea.....

Now going thru our lineage in this system here where Im at now, we trace it back in 2 different directions.... Grand Master Dave Foreman, a WWII vet, and Grand Master Robert Trias also a WWII vet. Now tracing back Mr. Foreman he studied with a man in Japan named Master Ik Lee, and Mr. Foreman then returned home and studied under Mr. Glenn Keeney who was a direct student under Master Robert Trias students. One of Hanshi Keeney's top students is Shihan Ron White, who was the Instructor of My two Instructors that I had in 1986, and Have now, In the TKD/Karate system... Mr. White is basically the Head Guy in town when it comes to Martial arts around here. Glenn Keeney runs and operates the PKC (proffesional Karate circut)
http://www.pkcheadquarters.org/
So in the long run when I ask a direct question about lineage It's usually answered in a circle and I've taken my own path to find out questions and answers. And just curious if anyone else has the same issues I have.... All in all as far as Karate or TKD goes in this area it is PKC sanctioned and only goes thru this lineage. However I have a very extensive background in other arts, that I managed to obtain while in the military and living in other areas. That I am now bringing to the table here to mix it up even more.hehehe....But I keep it all seperate in a sense that in my Filipino systems and other systems the lineage there is very understandable and upfront....so in the mean time Im going to play with this American TKD lineage to try to iron it out...

I hope this long and lengthy post made any sense to anyone...Because now I think Im more confused than was before I started.....LOL.....wow what a mess
THanks for any help or just an ear to listen
 
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aricept

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Wow. Thanks for the info. :)

The Chon-Ji, Dan-Gun, Do-San, Whon-Hyo, etc, forms, are the ITF forms. they were created and passed on by General Choi and the ITF, hence the common name.

The Pal Gwe forms were the set of 8 forms originally designed for use by the WTF, to make TKD "more Korean". It was eventually decided that the forms were still too Japanese, and the Taeguk forms, again 8 of them, were created.

In the beginning, Chung Do Kwan schools taught the 5 Pyong Ans, 3 Chul-gis, Pal-sek, Yun-be, Sip-soo, and Jion, and possibly a couple of other Shotokan derived forms. Did I miss any Zepp? Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. :)

Now, when General Choi was President of all thing taekwondo in Korea he instituted the ITF forms, and many schools switched to those forms, but still called themselves Chung Do Kwan.

Later, after the General left Korea and the WTF was formed, all schools ahd to adopt the Pal Gwes. Some continued to teach both of the new sets. Which may be where your school probably gets its lineage from, somewhere down the road.

My school can trace its lineage back to Jhoon Rhee, when he first came to America and was still teaching the original Chung Do Kwan forms. One of his students didn't want to make the switch to the ITF forms when General Choi visited, so we still, today, do the old set.

Nathan
 
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IMAA

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Thanks man, That clears alot of quesions up for as far as TKD is concerned. I have read the History of General Choi before in fact I think I have it somewhere in the midst of my notes, books around here.

Im more concerned as of now though, about the Connection that my current school has now between the Karate and TKD side.

If you can answer that, or help me there, i'd be greatful.

Thanks again
 
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aricept

Guest
Hmmm...

That's a tough question, just with the info you've given. GM Trias, who I believe is considered the first person to teach karate in the U.S., taught a unique combination of system's called Goju-Shorei. The style adopted forms from both Goju ryu and Shorei ryu karate.

The evidence of Trias's and Keeney's influence is probably in calling the forms Pyon, which is probably a derivation of Pinan. That's all just guesses, though. More likely you may do techniques the way Trias taught.

As another note, when Jhoon Rhee came to America he called his style "Korean Karate" because the term was more widely recognizable than any of the Korean terms. Other instructors also did this, and this may be why one of the styles you study is now called "American Karate."

Nathan
 
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Zepp

Zepp

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Originally posted by aricept
As another note, when Jhoon Rhee came to America he called his style "Korean Karate" because the term was more widely recognizable than any of the Korean terms. Other instructors also did this, and this may be why one of the styles you study is now called "American Karate."

Yup. Our Grandmaster Son came here in 1962 (I think) and used the term Korean Karate along with Tae Kwon Do for about a decade or so. In fact, some some groups within our organization still call it Korean Karate, to differentiate what we do from the WTF.
 

Kodanjaclay

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Grandmaster Son is an excellent martial artist, and you are fortunate to be able to train with someone of his caliber. That being said... when the ChungDoKwan opened in 1944, Yi, Won Kuk taught, according to him, Okinawa-te. Grandmaster Son had issued Maj. General Choi an honorary 4th dan in '55; however, it was revoked in '59 due to certain allegations. As I do not know if any were substantiated, I will not repeat them.

The thing is, Choi was not instrumental in forming KTA. Actually the idea to unify first came from Hwang Kee, who with the blessing of KASA was doing just that, and Jidokwan actually joined with them in this endeavor. When Choi popped up he had more political clout than Hwang Kee.

When KTA was first formed it was not the Korea Taekwondo Association, it was the Korea TaesooDo Association. Choi, blew a gasket because his name was not selected, and forced the name change to Taekwondo, which was one of the reasons he was pushed out, and I'm sure his excursion to the DPRK did not help either. At any rate, Uhm Kyu Um and others agreed to the name change. Here is the interesting thing though... supposedly they demanded his resignation, and Grandmaster Um helped him to set up the ITF as part of the deal.

Hope this helps.
 
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