Chinese Wushu Association Duan levels

[clfsean]

I imagine, in china, chinese restaurants and chinese martial art schools have a lot of competition with each other, as there are probably a lot of them.
So they may be real sensitive about how something looks.
If chinese customers go in to a chinese restaurant in china, and see the owner is not chinese, they are probably going to wonder why, and there will be talk and questions. The same with a TCMA school.
If I went into chinese martial art school in china, and the head instructor was not chinese, I would have pause.
It wouldn't matter in america, but if I went all the way to china to get martial art training, I want it from 黑曜石风 not John Wesley. [Made up names]
As I see it, Traditional chinese martial arts are magic.
But magic is probably the hardest thing in life for people to utilize.
I mean, how many people even can concieve of chi, let alone can use it.

There is no magic in TCMA. There are only basic techniques done very very well. There are only basic principles performed very very well.

If anybody tells you different, run in the other direction.

 

[mograph]

As I see it, Traditional chinese martial arts are magic.
But magic is probably the hardest thing in life for people to utilize.
I mean, how many people even can concieve of chi, let alone can use it.

Chi is a word for whatever makes natural processes happen.

Simplistically, of course:
What makes us move? Muscles change shape.
What makes them change shape? Electrochemical reactions sent from the brain through the somatic nervous system.
What makes electrochemical reactions happen? Call it Fred, call it Zip, call it Chi, call it Prana. Bio-energy? Whatever.

(The word is irrelevant except to facilitate communication through consensual validation.)

It only seems like magic because we are so out of touch with our bodies and how their functions feel. If we get in touch with Qigong and what it feels like (slowly, gently) we'll see that it's not magic.

Chi is no more magical than being alive is. Some practitioners demonstrate chi to make money, to intimidate us, but the humble demonstrate it to show how possible it is, effectively saying "look, even I can do this!" But that's Chi talk. As for TCMA, Chi may or may not be an explicit component of a system.

As for magic (again), it's only magic to someone who places himself in an "I'm not worthy, you're a wizard-magician-Jedi" position. You can see why, for a practitioner who uses TCMA techniques every day, such an attitude might mark the believer in magic as a bit of a rube, not worthy of much respect.
... because he'll never be a colleague, on the same path. So the practitioner puts on a show and saves the real instruction for those who don't believe it's magic.

As long as we believe something is magic, we'll never be good at it. In order to be good at it, we have to make the paradigm shift that it is not magic.

To put it another way, if we're in the film business and want to work with Steven Spielberg, and we want him to respect our opinion, we have to think of him as a respected colleague, not a celebrity-god-figure. See the mental paradigm shift?

 

[blindsage]

If I went to China and the instructor of a school was not Chinese, and there were a bunch of Chinese students, my first thought would be "Whoa, weird," and then I would assume he or she was either really, really good, or running a really good scam. If he/she was as good as I assumed he/she must be in order to be the instructor at a school in China, then I would be really interested in studying with them. Skill is skill, you either want to learn it or you don't, from whatever source it comes from. If you need a Chinese instructor to teach you kung-fu, in China or not, you're probably missing the point.

 

[Napitenkah]

Chi is a word for whatever makes natural processes happen.
Simplistically, of course:
What makes us move? Muscles change shape.
What makes them change shape? Electrochemical reactions sent from the brain through the somatic nervous system.
What makes electrochemical reactions happen? Call it Fred, call it Zip, call it Chi, call it Prana. Bio-energy? Whatever.
(The word is irrelevant except to facilitate communication through consensual validation.)
It only seems like magic because we are so out of touch with our bodies and how their functions feel. If we get in touch with Qigong and what it feels like (slowly, gently) we'll see that it's not magic.
Chi is no more magical than being alive is. Some practitioners demonstrate chi to make money, to intimidate us, but the humble demonstrate it to show how possible it is, effectively saying "look, even I can do this!" But that's Chi talk. As for TCMA, Chi may or may not be an explicit component of a system.
As for magic (again), it's only magic to someone who places himself in an "I'm not worthy, you're a wizard-magician-Jedi" position. You can see why, for a practitioner who uses TCMA techniques every day, such an attitude might mark the believer in magic as a bit of a rube, not worthy of much respect.
... because he'll never be a colleague, on the same path. So the practitioner puts on a show and saves the real instruction for those who don't believe it's magic.
As long as we believe something is magic, we'll never be good at it. In order to be good at it, we have to make the paradigm shift that it is not magic.
To put it another way, if we're in the film business and want to work with Steven Spielberg, and we want him to respect our opinion, we have to think of him as a respected colleague, not a celebrity-god-figure. See the mental paradigm shift?

I understand that perspective and the apparently negative associations with the word Magic.
If I look at it from the common definition of magic, then the word doesn't fit with how I am using it, because it does connote a sense of this thing beyond understanding.
But I use it because it often is beyond people's mental paradigms and understanding. This thing which is a natural part of living beings.
If we remain solid on what the word magic can mean, that it is a roadblock to growth, then it cannot be used, but I see the word as the first stage indicator to understanding.
If I see a martial art demonstration for the first time, I may be like, "How did they do that?"
I would have had that magical fascination with it. But that doesn't mean I am going to stay in that state, I can move on and learn more.
Going by my own experience, having that initial magical fascination has not arrested my growth in whatever art.
When I first saw someone play the guitar, I thought it was magic, I wondered if I could ever play like that. When I was 10, now I can play like breathing. When I first saw Michael hedges play the way he did, it was magic to me, and I wondered if I could ever play like that. Now I can.
When I would see a Spielberg movie, like Jaws, or ET, when I was a kid, I thought it was scary magic. Now I do make my own films, not professionally, but that doesn't matter to me, just that I can create my own magic.
When I first got into martial arts, it was magic, and I wondered if I could ever do it like what I would see. But this keeps evolving. Now, if I see someone do an incredible kick, or an amazing wushu display, it is magic, and it inspires me to find out and be able to do it. It does not arrest my development.
Chi is a word, and what is behind it just is. You don't have to learn it or even be able to talk about it to know how to utilize it. I knew it before I knew how to talk about it.
But cultures have come up with ways to talk about it. The chinese, among others, have put centuries of erudition into what it is and how it works. They don't describe it as magic, but something that already is in everyone, and how to realize that. They talk about polarities and meridian lines and the connections, among many other aspects. They talk about the difference between western medical perspective and eastern medical perspective.
They have come up with ways to show people, that have become accustomed to perceiving things only mentally, how to utilize chi.
I understand like, the wushu Duan levels, some people think it is silly.
I know if someone said to me, "I can teach you this martial art, I don't give belts, certificates, rank, or uniforms, I will just teach you everything I know of this TCMA and that will be that."
I would be fine with that. Because just to be able to learn and do that, would be magic enough for me.
All the toys in the long run, don't mean anything. They don't mean anything if you forget what it was you got them for.
If I got a belt or trophy for doing a form well, if I forget the form later, what does the trophy mean.
Of course in a longer timeline, the physical aspects of the martial art will be lost, when the body dies. So what will be kept then?
So in the short run, I enjoy the toys too. I like the belts and uniforms, and certificates, and still I know they are not significant, in the long run.
A lot of instructors know that there are all kinds of students. Some may need the motivational magic of a higher belt rank, of reaching another Duan level.
I don't need that stuff, but it doesn't bother me either.
Just for the record though, no one has ever told me martial arts were magic. If you think about it, it serves them no purpose to do so, if they intend to teach you it for money.
Only if they have no intention of teaching you.

 

[Napitenkah]

If I went to China and the instructor of a school was not Chinese, and there were a bunch of Chinese students, my first thought would be "Whoa, weird," and then I would assume he or she was either really, really good, or running a really good scam. If he/she was as good as I assumed he/she must be in order to be the instructor at a school in China, then I would be really interested in studying with them. Skill is skill, you either want to learn it or you don't, from whatever source it comes from. If you need a Chinese instructor to teach you kung-fu, in China or not, you're probably missing the point.

Well, the point is not what I am really focusing on, but different angles, so I don't get stuck pushing a particular point.

I know in reality, if I went to china, and I found a really good non-Chinese instructor, I wouldn't even flinch.

 

[mograph]

I understand that perspective and the apparently negative associations with the word Magic.

You know, I thought that our respective interpretations of "magic" might need to be clarified. Fair enough.

Thanks!

 

[colemcm]

That's the problem with language; any given word actually means something. The majority of people understand the word "magic" to mean a supernatural force that exists beyond human understanding. The don't usually think of it being another word for "fascination".

Of course, you're free to use whatever words you like. However, I suspect that you'll encounter a lot of scenarios where you have to delineate from the subject of the thread in order to explain what your definition of a word is. It might be more respectful to the OP to simply use another word that better explains your point or preempt any misunderstandings by including an explanation.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Much the problem with communication via typing in a web forum....much is left to interpretation and ones own definition of words that may not be the excepted dictionary definition

 

[TaiChiTJ]

The June issue of Kung Fu Tai Chi magazine has an article on the ranking system titled:

"Reassessing Shaolinquan A look at the Wushu Ranking System Program for Shaolinquan"

The article starts out describing the system's Blue, Silver and Gold Eagle, Tiger and Dragon ranks. It also says:
"in addition there is a preliminary Duanwei (equivalent to a white belt in other martial arts) which has three sublevels and later was determined to be represented by a Panda".

So a student can be a blue silver or gold panda. The rest of the article focuses on the Shaolin forms, issues, etc.

BTW - There seems to be alot of recent questions about Shaolin and the temple on MT. This June issue has several articles about that, including an interview with the abbot, Venerable Shi Yongxin.

 

[clfsean]

The June issue of Kung Fu Tai Chi magazine has an article on the ranking system titled:

"Reassessing Shaolinquan A look at the Wushu Ranking System Program for Shaolinquan"

The article starts out describing the system's Blue, Silver and Gold Eagle, Tiger and Dragon ranks. It also says:
"in addition there is a preliminary Duanwei (equivalent to a white belt in other martial arts) which has three sublevels and later was determined to be represented by a Panda".

So a student can be a blue silver or gold panda. The rest of the article focuses on the Shaolin forms, issues, etc.

BTW - There seems to be alot of recent questions about Shaolin and the temple on MT. This June issue has several articles about that, including an interview with the abbot, Venerable Shi Yongxin.

Yeah I read that. I helped me to remember why I lost interest in Songshan Shaolin. A few years back, there was a new form created for competition called remarkably "Shaolin Compulsory", just like PRC Wushu compulsories. Between that & all the other goodness that Shi Yong Xin has brought in... nothing for me to see from there.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yeah I read that. I helped me to remember why I lost interest in Songshan Shaolin. A few years back, there was a new form created for competition called remarkably "Shaolin Compulsory", just like PRC Wushu compulsories. Between that & all the other goodness that Shi Yong Xin has brought in... nothing for me to see from there.

I am waiting for the Wudang Compulsory and sadly I would not be surprised if at some point there was not a Chen Compulsory as well... but I doubt it will show up until the 19th generation is no longer in control

 

[Xue Sheng]

The Yang family has a similar system, except it replaces "Blue" with "Copper".
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/association/ranking/index.php

I can't say I'm a big fan of ranking systems. Although, I can definitely understand the desire to control who officially represents an art.

In my opinion the Yang family ranking system is more about control for purposes of money than anything else and I won't tell you what my sifu said about it, suffice to say it was not a positive comment

 

[Napitenkah]

That's the problem with language; any given word actually means something. The majority of people understand the word "magic" to mean a supernatural force that exists beyond human understanding. The don't usually think of it being another word for "fascination".

Of course, you're free to use whatever words you like. However, I suspect that you'll encounter a lot of scenarios where you have to delineate from the subject of the thread in order to explain what your definition of a word is. It might be more respectful to the OP to simply use another word that better explains your point or preempt any misunderstandings by including an explanation.

No, I see a lot of scenarios of people feeling like they need to correct what they believe, with no ambiquity, is wrong. In which case I try to reach a better level of understanding.
Which seldom has occured here.
Like you misaligned what I said as using magic as another word for fascination.
So now I have to explain to you.
I used the word exactly as the defintion, I just interpreted it in a positive light, while others primarily have negative connotations with the word.
Magical fascination is seeing it as a supernatural force beyond human understanding.
The negative interpretation is the person will stay in that state of awareness, and not grow, I say you can, and I have done so, in my own experience.
And the added statement of being disrespectful to the OP.
OP: "Frankly the whole thing is a bit silly to me but I thought some might be interested in this."
I replied: "So ying is Eagle, hu is tiger, and long is Dragon?
I know the yi, er, san, si, wu, liu, qi, ba, jiu, are counting.
I can count to 10 verbally in chinese, or more specifically mandarin.
Why is it silly?"
No one replied. No one.

It wasn't until someone stated:

... and as long as some of us westerners expect fast results for little work, or think of TCMA skill as "magic", this situation will not change.

I responded to that, and that brought out several people to correct me, based on their negative interpretations of magic.
So overall, with people only responding when they think something is wrong, and feeling like they should correct it, and then when I reply, people misinterpreting that and insisting I am going off topic and disrespecting the OP, this is one example of how this makes the forum, not a friendly martial arts community. Which I already mentioned to the Admin.
The OP used excepted in sentence for what he should have used accepted for.
While he was trying to say,

Much the problem with communication via typing in a web forum....much is left to interpretation and ones own definition of words that may not be the excepted dictionary definition

So it isn't just you of course, Colemcm, this is the general vibe of the place, which even though you are a white belt, you fit right in.

This whole thing of people feeling they are the guardians of a martial art, and have to correct people.

That is usually a good sign to me, that they are not eternally growing martial artists, but people that are stuck in thinking they know what is right and wrong about the Martial Art.

I will go to a Kwoon for a sifu, not a web forum. People here know some things about Traditional Chinese martial arts, but no one has gotten my trust in their advice and corrections.

 

[colemcm]

Napitankah,

I think you're taking offense where none was intended. I don't have any personal issue with you. My advice was to help you more clearly communicate with the other people on this board.

As far as the issue of disrespect goes, eight or nine out of the total thirty-three posts in this thread have been about your use of the word "magic". That much effort going to discussing something besides the Duan system is what I think is slightly disrespectful to the OP.

I will say that I believe that people SHOULD be the guardians of their art. They should have pride in what they've learned and should actively try to correct people that they think misrepresent their art. To do otherwise is wrong. I suspect that it was exactly this issue that caused people to react to your magic comment the way they did. I can't speak for them, but I can say for myself that I think the mystification of the martial arts makes it more difficult for people to learn and undermines the efforts of future generations of martial artists.

 

[colemcm]

Xue,

I don't know enough about their organization to say whether that's the case. With the number of people as there are making money off of THEIR name, I can't say I fault them for trying to get some of the action, though. They're martial artists, not Buddhist monks.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue,

I don't know enough about their organization to say whether that's the case. With the number of people as there are making money off of THEIR name, I can't say I fault them for trying to get some of the action, though. They're martial artists, not Buddhist monks.

I'm sorry but I agree with my shifu on the matter, he was a student of Tung Ying Chieh and Tung Ying Chieh was a student of Yang Chengfu... The Yang family is all about money these days and not so much about Yang Taijiquan.

And my shifu us not a Buddhist either and he has no ranking system and charges next to nothing.

However Shaolin is allegedly full of Buddhist who charge exuberant sums of money.... so Buddhist monk is not necessarily the best example

 

[clfsean]

However Shaolin is allegedly full of Buddhist who charge exuberant sums of money.... so Buddhist monk is not necessarily the best example

Whhhhaaaaaa?????? :s125:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Whhhhaaaaaa?????? :s125:

There there....don't cry..... I'm sure they teach good stuff..it just can be a bit on the expensive side...with lots of jumping and spinning and leaping

 

[colemcm]

Like I said, I'm not familiar with the family and their practices. So I can't really comment.

My Sifu was a student of Leung King Yu, who was a student of Chen Wei Ming. He donated all of his fees (a whopping $15/month per person) to a class fund that we used for trips and banquets. His interest was solely on sharing authentic Yang style Tai Chi, not on making money. Even then, he never begrudged anyone for charging their students. He even encouraged me to charge my students when I had a class, which is something I never did. (I find it difficult to charge for something that didn't pay much for. I accepted gifts because it's rude not to, but never asked for anything.) My monk comment was more a way of saying that they're not obligated to operate under some vow of poverty.

Personally, I would hesitate to even call Shaolin members monks anymore. It's a business.

 

[colemcm]

Getting back to ranking systems, if they can be implemented with the idea that you're establishing a system to authenticate and transmit a purer form of the art, then I think it's great.

If it's only about making money, it's not so great, but is understandable.