Chil Sung Ee Ro

[agemechanic03]

Does anyone have any info on this Hyung? My instructor taught us the whole form, easy and I can see all the applications in the Hyung, plus it's fun. But was wandering if anyone had any insight behind it. Bring it on Upnorth, I know you have something to say about it...

Tang Soo!!

 

[Makalakumu]

First of all, in order to aid the coversation, here is a video of the form.

http://www.martialtalk.com/videos/Chil Sung Ee Lo.AVI

Is this close to what you are doing? This is what I was taught when I was a member of the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation.

I will post more comments about it based off of what other people say and my own observations when its not so late.

 

[agemechanic03]

Surprisingly it was the exact same way we do ours except at the end...the punches after the back stance low blocks, we do a center punch (last 4 moves).

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Interesting video. I'm ITF-style, so we don't do the Chil Sung forms, but it's an interesting-looking form. I can see a lot of similarities between this form and the more traditional hyung derived from Japanese styles, particularly the I-shaped movement pattern -- it could almost be a pyung ahn form. You do the form a bit too quickly for me to be able to analyze any of the movements, however. Would it be possible for you to do another version of that, with the moves slowed down so that I can see more clearly what you're doing?

 

[agemechanic03]

If I can, I'll video myself doing the Hyung tomorrow morning when I get to class. Then it's just trying to get my computer to accept the stupid chip....haha!

 

[Makalakumu]

Interesting video. I'm ITF-style, so we don't do the Chil Sung forms, but it's an interesting-looking form. I can see a lot of similarities between this form and the more traditional hyung derived from Japanese styles, particularly the I-shaped movement pattern -- it could almost be a pyung ahn form. You do the form a bit too quickly for me to be able to analyze any of the movements, however. Would it be possible for you to do another version of that, with the moves slowed down so that I can see more clearly what you're doing?

JT - all of my vids are kind of fast because I'm trying to cut down on the size. Many of our members are stuck on dial-up so even downloading this one can take a long time.

Now, here are some general comments about the chil sung forms...

The Chil Sung Hyungs were created by Hwang Kee and are the result of his interpretation of an ancient text on Korean Martial Arts. This book was written during the "Three Kingdoms" period in Korea, in particular, the new nation Koryo, from which the modern name Korea has been derived.

In the subsequent Yi dynasty, King Jung-Jo ordered Duk-Moo-Yi to write a book of martial arts techniques. This book is known as the "Moo-Ye-Do-Bo-Tong-Ji". Gradually, with the influence of Confucianism the practise of martial arts in Korea declined. The impact of this development was increased when the Japanese invaded Korea in 1910 and banned the practise of all martial arts.).

One can also see the influence of Hwang Kee's training in Yang Style Tai Chi in these hyungs.

The name Chil Sung Hyung translates into Seven Star Path. Hwang Kee was said to have been inspired by the constallation for the Little Dipper, which has seven stars, and terminates with Polaris. This series of seven hyung is designed to be an individuals path toward balancing Weh Gung (physical) and Neh Gung (spiritual). This balancing concept is known as Chun Gul Ryu, which translates into Middle School.

Students of these hyungs begin their practice of Chun Gul Ryu by making a distinct separation between the slow and the fast portions of these hyungs.

Chil Sung Hyungs are taught at every level in the art of Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan. The second one is taught before the first one because of the ease of its technique. However, the subtlety in that form requires years to perfect. Only the highest level practioners learn the seventh Chil Sung, so only a handful of people have "completed" the entire path.

I have learned the first four hyung on this path. I learned these forms from my teacher when we were a part of the USSBDMDK federation and they were required material. Now that we are no longer members of the federation, these forms are no longer required in our dojang.

 

[Makalakumu]

As far as this hyung is concerned, JT's earlier observation that it looked very Japanese/Okinawan, that is essentially correct. Many of the sequences in this form are adapted directly from the classical kata. This, IMHO enhances the combat applicability of the moves in this form and makes it one of the most effective hyung in the whole set.

Not that the others are not SD effective, its just that they are more complex and require MUCH more time in order to understand.

Which begs an important question, IMO, I wonder of many TSDMDK, TSDMGK, or SBDMDK people realize that this entire set of forms contains pretty much all they would need to know in order to defend themselves?

The similarities between the classical kata and the chil sungs is such that it creates a level of superflousness that encumbers the practicioners with serious time restraints in regards to understanding the rest of their forms.

 

[MBuzzy]

UpNorth,

What is your interpretation of the slower movements before the front kicks coming back south? The most simple explanation is that the opponent's head or Dobahk is being grabbed and a kick is being executed to the stomach or chest.

I've been examining the similar movement from Pyang Ahn Sa Dan, so I see some similar applications (other than the obvious), such as blocks or breaking away an opponent's grasp....but I'm curious what you think about the slow movements? These are all throughout the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro forms. It seems to me though, that in real applications, these movements would actually be done full speed.

 

[agemechanic03]

Thanks UpNorth...Very enlightening and informational. History behind Hyungs are always interesting....well at least to me...I really like history, so yeah.


TANG SOO!!

 

[Makalakumu]

What is your interpretation of the slower movements before the front kicks coming back south? The most simple explanation is that the opponent's head or Dobahk is being grabbed and a kick is being executed to the stomach or chest.

A couple of things...

1. The slower motion is setting up a particular mindset for a clinch. This isn't a seize or smash, its a grasping motion where you are loose and you give nothing away and then explode unbeknownst to your opponent. This application is good for when uke already has a grasp on you and the grapple has already been initiated.

2. The kick doesn't need to always be a front kick and it doesn't always need to be directed at the head.

3. The kick can also be a throw. Tomoe Nage

I've been examining the similar movement from Pyang Ahn Sa Dan, so I see some similar applications (other than the obvious), such as blocks or breaking away an opponent's grasp....but I'm curious what you think about the slow movements? These are all throughout the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro forms. It seems to me though, that in real applications, these movements would actually be done full speed.

All of these moves are grappling applications of some kind. The chil sung and yuk ro forms make entirely change the nature of how a soobahkdoin would fight, but most don't have any idea. The other thing that they do is that they take the grappling moves that are found in the classical hyungs and make them more obvious.

I really like the chil sung hyungs, but I will only ever be able to learn 1-5.

 

[MBuzzy]

Those ground throws can be very elusive in Hyung....Its so hard to picture until you see it like that.

 

[Makalakumu]

The set up for the throw is all there, but the drop is missing...but that is so common in Okinawan based hyungs. Uchi Komi throws are every where, or they are implied in even more subtle ways.

One thing to keep in mind is that Okinawan Te assumes a set level of grappling knowledge. On that particular island, a style of wrestling known as Tegumi was practiced in earnest by just about everyone.

Thus, when it comes to hyung, a lot of the moves that hint at throws were easily recognizable. For people who lack that background, those same moves were changed or became some sort of weird interpretation of what was actually going on.

 

[agemechanic03]

UpNoth, I also noticed today as I was performing this Hyung that not only can you use it as a throwing roll as per say, you could also do 2 different things....
1) Instead of an actual front kick, replace it with a knee to the mid section as you pull them down into you. Best one I've seen so far.
2) Or you can front kick to the groin, but I tried and noticed it would be more effective with the knee than a kick to the groin.

As for the roll, I imagine is also very effective too. Not only do you throw that guy out of your way, you can stand up, grab another guy and throw him too, especially since you do that motion twice. I'm not gonna try since I have no training in that art, only if I was actually having to apply it, maybe then I would use it. Like I said, try it with a partner and throw a knee in place of it, works really well!

 

[Makalakumu]

My advice is that when you get the chance, go to a judo school and get some training in ukemi and nage and bring that back to where ever you are still practicing Soo Bahk Do. Both of these are part and parcel when it comes to training at my dojang, in fact, I teach students how to fall on their first day.

I'm glad some of these apps are working for you. It is my firm belief that Hwang Kee intended all of these things with his hyungs. I think that he saw the potential that the classical hyungs had, but did not exactly know how to unlock it, so he created hyungs that have just as much potential.

 

[agemechanic03]

I completely agree with you in the understanding of all the potential behind these hyungs....Each move has atleast 2 apps behind them, you just don't realize them until you look deep or as you said, train in another style too.
Our instructor teaches us certain falls and the only rolls we learn are rolling forwards. If I could train for a few months in Judo/ Jui-Jitsue (sorry for spelling) I would, but we don't have that here in Korea, maybe I can find one near where i'll be stationed at in Germany....hmmmmm

 

[Makalakumu]

You shouldn't have to take another art in order to learn this stuff. All of these techniques are part of the art that you are currently training in. The problem is that they just don't get taught. This can happen for a number of reasons...

1. The instructor doesn't know that they are there.
2. The instructor has a conception of this art purely as a striking art.
3. The instructor would rather teach other techniques like more kicks.

The good news is that you will probably find a great judo school in germany. It's a pretty popular sport over there, so I've heard.

 

[agemechanic03]

That's cool...Personally I've never really seen anything in them involving Judo until you said something about. That's good to know that it is a big sport over there...I just posted a Thread in the Judo section to see if anyone knew of any schools over there or a website...I'll have to start looking into the forms more for those lil extra applications. It's something I've just started doing in the past couple of weeks. Now I catch myself telling someone the application behind a specific move every day in class. It makes me feel smart somedays too...lol

 

[Makalakumu]

Hey, that's cool. I'd be really curious what your korean teachers are saying about some of these apps.

If you want to see more, check out this forum.

Superior Tangsoodo

It is my hosted forum on this site for my school. There is plenty on throwing and locking in all of the forms in there.

 

[agemechanic03]

I haven't really talked or asked him about the apps....a few I have...they are mostly what I have seen in them or from what I take from people on here...I am usually assisting in training other people while he takes a few few...I do morning classes and there is usually only 4 of us in class...so I take a few and he takes a few...So whoever is with me see's more in the hyungs than they probable want to know...they're not as serious as I am...Military guys, what do you expect? Haha...I'll definately give the link a peek. If I see anything else, app wise, I'll let you know my thoughts!

 

[MBuzzy]

I have had a few conversations (in broken english) with Master Choe about his feelings on applications of forms. Basically his feeling is that a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. I know that he KNOWS more of the applications, because he has shown us a few and some of his Ill Soo Sik and Ho Sin Sul you can tell come from the Hyung.

When I got back to the states, I spoke with two masters here about it. They both had the same experience, that Koreans mostly ignore any hidden applications to Hyungs....the KOREA Koreans at least. They had both run into a lot of Koreans who had that feeling, including some very high ranking individuals in some of the American organizations.

From my conversations, I think he knows....but doesn't say. I saw that there is a part of Korean culture where there is the TRUTH and there is the accepted Truth. Two different versions, but whatever is the socially accepted truth is the one that most people use.