Chase Hand

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you try to punch your opponent's head, which approach will you use:

1. Just punch on your opponent's head (ignore his hand).
2. Control your opponent's wrist first (chase hand), you guide his arm away from your entering path, you then get his head.

People may think that "chase hand" is a bad idea. I think it's an excellent idea. If you can chase your opponent's hand, you will know exactly where his head is.

Your thought?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is "pulling guard" the same as "chase hand"?

Your thought?

 

[wab25]

If you chase their hand, then you are removing your own guard... opening the door for him, in order to try to get his hand. This is why those standing wrist locks are so hard to get on people, out side of the dojo. You are busy chasing his hand with yours, while he is busy punching you in the head. You can't block with the hand you are chasing his hand with.

I like to punch him in the head. If I punch him in the head... great. If he blocks, or covers up... I make contact with his hand or arm. Now, I can control where his hands go. Boxers do this all the time. In order to open the head, for a head punch, they punch the body. The other gets tries to stop the body punches and lowers his guard, opening the door to the head.

If you start chasing the hand, to pull it down, you are essentially going for that standing wrist lock. You are lowering your guard, in order to try to catch his hand. He didn't even have to work your body, you just opened the door. Also, you will now be more likely to fall for his feint. He feints his hand one way, you got hit last time you didn't catch it, so you try harder this time to catch his hand... you end up opening your guard even more.

In order to make that standing wrist lock work... punch him in the head. (if you KO him, the wrist lock is much easier to get ) When he blocks, he puts his hand or arm into contact with yours. You don't have to chase it at all. So, punch him in the head until he starts to block it. Now, you know his hand will block it, maintain the contact between your punching hand and his blocking hand. Now you have a decent chance of pulling it out of the way, or finding your wrist lock. The key is you did not chase his hand, he gave it to you to block your punch. As long as you maintain the contact, you each still have only one free arm.

The other advantage here is that he is reacting to you. His first concern is not getting hit. This gives you the time to pull or apply the lock. The pull will be a higher percentage move than the lock... getting a lock in this set up, is much more possible than catching the hand out of the air.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You are busy chasing his hand with yours, while he is busy punching you in the head.

When my right hand is chasing my opponent's left hand, and my left hand is chasing his right hand, if his hand can punch on my head, that mean his hand has to get away from my hand chasing first. That also mean my chasing hand have failed big time.

You can't block with the hand you are chasing his hand with.

Of course I can block my opponent's punch with the hand that I'm chasing with. That's the main purpose of "chasing hand". My opponent's hands have to get away from my hand chasing before his hands can reach to my head/body.

In the following clip, the old man's hands are very close to his opponent's hands. Any intention of his opponent's hands movement can be detected and interrupted during the early stage.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

When using an arm to block an incoming blow, one can follow the arm back to something of value. In this manner, one may 'chase' the incoming strike back to the source. This may apply in some of the situations you describe.

One may also steal energy from an opponent's strike and use their force as a springboard to aid your counter-attack.

Both predicate being attacked first and then countering.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When my right hand is chasing my opponent's left hand, and my left hand is chasing his right hand, if his hand can punch on my head, that mean his hand has to get away from my hand chasing first. That also mean my chasing hand have failed big time.

It think there may be some confusion. I know exactly what you are talking about but I'm not sure if "Chase Hands" is a good term of it. Most people think of chase hands as my hand is trying to follow my opponents hands.

Based on a different post where you mention on how to deal with the lead hand, I think what you and I do is probably "controlling hands" The biggest difference is that we aren't really chasing after punches, instead we are looking for our opponent's hand to be in a certain position so we can control what our opponent's can do with that hand.

This is mainly for those who may not understand what you are saying:
When I control my opponent's hand (correctly) He cannot punch me nor grab me without first removing or getting by my "controlling hand". I don't care how good a person is or how bad a person is at fighting. This is a universal truth, so much so that there are martial arts techniques specifically designed to deal with escaping or countering a "controlling hand".

We even see this in wrestling where on wrestler tries to control the hand of his opponent and the opponent defends against that "controlling hand." One of the things I really enjoy demonstrating is how "controlling hands" work. I would give people the opportunity to punch me in the face while I'm using a "controlling hand" First they punch soft because they think they are going to hit me. After about 5 tries I tell them to punch harder and to really give it their best, and they are amazed that they still can't hit me. The reason why is because of what Wang is saying. Before they can reach me, they must first get past my hand.

"Controlling hands" do not only control incoming punches, but it also controls returning punches.

I'll have to see if my son would be willing to be the test subject so I can better explain and demonstrate the concept.

 

[Martial D]

If you chase their hand, then you are removing your own guard... opening the door for him, in order to try to get his hand. This is why those standing wrist locks are so hard to get on people, out side of the dojo. You are busy chasing his hand with yours, while he is busy punching you in the head. You can't block with the hand you are chasing his hand with.

I like to punch him in the head. If I punch him in the head... great. If he blocks, or covers up... I make contact with his hand or arm. Now, I can control where his hands go. Boxers do this all the time. In order to open the head, for a head punch, they punch the body. The other gets tries to stop the body punches and lowers his guard, opening the door to the head.

If you start chasing the hand, to pull it down, you are essentially going for that standing wrist lock. You are lowering your guard, in order to try to catch his hand. He didn't even have to work your body, you just opened the door. Also, you will now be more likely to fall for his feint. He feints his hand one way, you got hit last time you didn't catch it, so you try harder this time to catch his hand... you end up opening your guard even more.

In order to make that standing wrist lock work... punch him in the head. (if you KO him, the wrist lock is much easier to get ) When he blocks, he puts his hand or arm into contact with yours. You don't have to chase it at all. So, punch him in the head until he starts to block it. Now, you know his hand will block it, maintain the contact between your punching hand and his blocking hand. Now you have a decent chance of pulling it out of the way, or finding your wrist lock. The key is you did not chase his hand, he gave it to you to block your punch. As long as you maintain the contact, you each still have only one free arm.

The other advantage here is that he is reacting to you. His first concern is not getting hit. This gives you the time to pull or apply the lock. The pull will be a higher percentage move than the lock... getting a lock in this set up, is much more possible than catching the hand out of the air.

I was going to say something to this effect but you beat me to it. Well written.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you chase their hand, then you are removing your own guard...

If you can control your opponent's hands through your hand chasing, you don't need your own guard. Offense is the best defense.

Here are examples.

 

[skribs]

If you chase their hand, then you are removing your own guard... opening the door for him, in order to try to get his hand. This is why those standing wrist locks are so hard to get on people, out side of the dojo. You are busy chasing his hand with yours, while he is busy punching you in the head. You can't block with the hand you are chasing his hand with.

I mean, any technique is "removing your own guard". Does that mean you shouldn't punch, because it removes your own guard?

 

[drop bear]

I mean, any technique is "removing your own guard". Does that mean you shouldn't punch, because it removes your own guard?

 

[drop bear]

If their hands are tight then you can go for them. And we can look at things like Dutch trapping. Or arm drags.

If their hands move then you go for the gap created rather than chasing the hand.

Otherwise you would want to have some sort of rip snorting head lock because otherwise you are exposing your back going for that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If their hands are tight then you can go for them. And we can look at things like Dutch trapping. Or arm drags.

If their hands move then you go for the gap created rather than chasing the hand.

Otherwise you would want to have some sort of rip snorting head lock because otherwise you are exposing your back going for that.

Thank you for the video. I'll be taking this video as it shows the same thing I was teaching the student.
Upward block from TKD, Karate, Hapkido was in the video too

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If their hands move then you go for the gap created rather than chasing the hand.

When you use downward parry, and your opponent's hand moves, most of the time he is borrowing your downward force, spins his arm and hook punch (or hay-maker) to your head (one of my favor tricks). When he does that, you still need to "chase his hand" if you want to stop his fist from punching on the side of your head.

This is why a downward parry should always followed by an upward comb hair, and then followed by an arm wrap.

The purpose of "chase hand" is to "restrict your opponent's arms mobility". If your opponent's hands cannot punch you, it will be your turn to use your hands on him.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When you use downward parry, and your opponent's hand moves, most of the time he is borrowing your downward force, spins his arm and hook punch (or hay-maker) to your head (one of my favor tricks).

That's why I don't downward parrry. My hand controls my opponents arm and prevent is from looping around to strike. This is why I say it's more like controlling hands instead of chasing hands. Controlling my opponent's hand "restrict my opponent's arms mobility".

Parry is like slapping away, so my opponent can then turn that energy to power his counter.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's why I don't downward parrry. My hand controls my opponents arm and prevent is from looping around to strike.

Even if I may control my opponent's arm, if he rotates his arm against my thumb, he can still get out of my holding. The comb hair or the 2nd parry will be my next move.

I have played this kind of game in grip fight over and over. If my opponent rotates his arm the same direction as my arm rotation, I'll either reverse my rotate direction (meet him 1/2 way), or rotate the same direction again (chase him from behind - 100% chase hand).

 

[wab25]

I mean, any technique is "removing your own guard". Does that mean you shouldn't punch, because it removes your own guard?

When I punch, I create an opening to be hit. Thats why I don't punch just to punch. If I punch with the intent to hit the other guy, he has to react to it... block, slip, dodge, or he gets hit.

Every time I have tried doing "Octopus" movements, against a guy that knows how to hit... I get hit. Those out stretched arms are bait, to get you to focus on them, instead of the opponent. I go for the out stretched hand, it circles and hits or the other one hits while the first moves away.

I understand the controlling hands bit. And agree with it. The hard part is getting and maintaining that contact. You can wait for the punch, and counter by following it back as mentioned before. Or, I find better luck just punching them. When they block or parry, they find your hand with theirs. I don't have to look or chase.

I have seen too many people, myself included, try to chase the hands. If I can just catch it, I can control it. This works great when the other guy doesn't really know how to punch. When the other guy knows how to punch, you have to counter and follow or strike first and maintain the contact he gives you. Why chase his hands... if you punch him, he will give you his hands... or you will hit him.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Even if I may control my opponent's arm, if he rotates his arm against my thumb, he can still get out of my holding. The comb hair or the 2nd parry will be my next move.

I have played this kind of game in grip fight over and over. If my opponent rotates his arm the same direction as my arm rotation, I'll either reverse my rotate direction (meet him 1/2 way), or rotate the same direction again (chase him from behind - 100% chase hand).

To me this isn't chase hands. To me this is attack and counter. It's not the same thing as hands trying to wavy around randomly in an effort to prevent an incoming strike.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why chase his hands... if you punch him, he will give you his hands... or you will hit him.

If your opponent's head is hidden behind his boxing guard, you will need to pull his guard open before you can hit his head. That "pull guard" is "chase hand" by definition.

- You punch.
- Your opponent blocks.
- You re-block (or wrap) his blocking arm, and
- ...

The reason that you want to control your opponent's leading arm is either to take him down, or when you punch his head, he won't be able to dodge.

Of course you can use a groin kick to bait your opponent to drop his guard. That will be a different strategy.

Every time I have tried doing "Octopus" movements, against a guy that knows how to hit... I get hit.

Do you have any clip to show when that happen?

When you use "octopus" strategy, you are throwing 2 hook punches toward your opponent's head. This should put him in defense mode. If your opponent dodges your hook, a light push on his upper arm can interrupt almost all his punches. Your goal is either your opponent's wrist, or his upper arm (if he moves his arm away).

Here is an example that if you miss your opponent's wrist, you reach to his upper arm. You can restrict your opponent's arm mobility in both cases.

- control his arm on the wrist.
- push his upper arm.

 

[wab25]

Here is an example that if you miss your opponent's wrist, you reach to his upper arm. You can restrict your opponent's arm mobility in both cases.

If he stands still, and lets you in as shown in the video. If he doesn't stand still, and knows how to punch... it will turn out differently.

The guy in white, chases the other guys hand, to pull it down. If the guy in black knows what he is doing... he has options. And he would like you to try to pull that hand down.

1. He pulls his left hand back, making the other guy miss with his right, then jabs right over the top of it. Since the other guy is moving in, he walks into the jab.
2. He circles his left hand clockwise, as the other guys reaches for it. He can then, continue that motion and throw a left hook to the other guys unprotected jaw. He can even barrow the force of his hand being pulled down, to add to his hook punch. He can move his back foot, turning to his right as he throws the hook. Since the other guy is trying to move in... His unprotected jaw will move into the perfect position for that left hook.
3. He can drop is left as soon as the other guy touches it, immediately throwing the straight right (not a looping right, or hooking right...). The two side work at the same time, the punch is coming as his left is dropping. Since the other guy is intent on closing in, he walks into a straight right. (there is a slight step to the left here as well... when the left hand comes down, the guy in black steps his left foot further left, putting his right hand on the center line of the other guy... right down the pipe as they say. This step also puts the left hand of the guy in white, too far outside, to be able to stop the upper arm.)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If he stands still, and lets you in as shown in the video. If he doesn't stand still, and knows how to punch... it will turn out differently.

Both the attacker and the defender can move around. There is no argument on that.

I don't understand your logic here.

1. I put my hands next your hands. When I detect your striking intention, I try to interrupt your striking during the early stage.
2. My hands are away from your hands. You will have all the space that you need to generate your speed and power for your punch.

Do you agree that

- strategy 1 > strategy 2.
- it's easier to block your opponent's punch if your hand is closer to his arm than your hand is away from his arm?
- if you can push on top of your opponent's both elbow joints, both of his hands cannot punch you? This goal is not that easy to achieve. But this can restrict your opponent's arms mobility.