Can you become a good fighter by just sparring/wrestling only?

[jobo]

And which of these two activities is more similar to fighting?

there much the same, to be honest, only practincing wreselling someone who may punch you is just about as useless as practicing punching someone who may grapple you

 

[Martial D]

You should probably read the context of posts and who they are addressed to before replying. I was clearly talking about kata vs sparring not striking vs wrestling.

 

[jobo]

You should probably read the context of posts and who they are addressed to before replying. I was clearly talking about kata vs sparring not striking vs wrestling.

but the context of the thread, infacct the undisputed title is wrestling/ sparing, as no one does kata only wrestling is you that's off beam in order to shoe horn your ussual strawman in

 

[Martial D]

but the context of the thread, infacct the undisputed title is wrestling/ sparing, as no one does kata only wrestling is you that's off beam in order to shoe horn your ussual strawman in

What?

I think you have given up on even the illusion of making any sense lol

 

[jobo]

What?

I think you have given up on even the illusion of making any sense lol

il do it slowly for the challenged

read the title, the thread is dedicated to the intresting topic of wrestling/ sparring, not kata,

the only one banging on about kata is you, as it suits your single issue posting agenda

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Ah, some whataboutism with kata. Perfect way to veer off course.

 

[Martial D]

il do it slowly for the challenged

read the title, the thread is dedicated to the intresting topic of wrestling/ sparring, not kata,

the only one banging on about kata is you, as it suits your single issue posting agenda

You don't seem to understand how discussion works. Shocking.

 

[dvcochran]

And which of these two activities is more similar to fighting?

Fair question. They both have dissimilarities from fighting.

 

[jobo]

You don't seem to understand how discussion works. Shocking.

I UNDERSTAND HOW YOUR DISCUSIONS WORK, YOU IGNORE THE TOPIC, BANG ON ABOUT YOUR ONE TOPIC( how useless kata is) AND COMPAIN IF PEOPLE TRY AND MOVE IT BACK

thats every thread you participate in

 

[Martial D]

I UNDERSTAND HOW YOUR DISCUSIONS WORK, YOU IGNORE THE TOPIC, BANG ON ABOUT YOUR ONE TOPIC( how useless kata is) AND COMPAIN IF PEOPLE TRY AND MOVE IT BACK

thats every thread you participate in

Talking to you is pointless. As I have no masochistic tendencies to indulge, you can join tez on my very exclusive ignore list now. Be well.

 

[Steve]

My opinion on the original question, it depends on what you want to know how to do. Decide what you want to know how to do, design a test, and then test your ability in a way that provides objective, external feedback. Wrestling is a terrible way to learn to strike, but it might be a great way to defeat a competent striker. If you don't want to learn how to throw a punch, but do want to learn how to defeat a person who is good at throwing punches, you just need to find a venue where you can fight guys who are good strikers, and only use your wrestling skills.

This is a simple, universal principle. Are you an aikidoka who wants to use your skills in a fight? Find a venue in which you can fight some folks, and use your skills. Take the feedback, train some more and test it again. As you get better, fight people who are more skilled. If the rule set you're fighting in is too focused, find one that is less restrictive. If you can't find one that is less restrictive, find one that tests a different element of your skill set.

For example, a BJJ guy who wants to be really good at positional control could do very well only ever competing in IBJJF gi tournaments. If he wants to improve his aggression and submission skills, he might also compete in no-gi and also in submission only tournaments. If he wants to use his BJJ skills well against strikers, he can fight in MMA. If he wants to use his BJJ skills on the street, he can work as a bouncer in a seedy bar. None of the above requires him to learn to strike, though the same principles could apply if he wanted to add that skillset to his tool box.

And a note here is, would a BJJ only guy excel in MMA? No... there's a point where he's going to get smashed. But it's up to him to decide how good he wants to be and what skills he wants to improve, and then he can just train for the test. As long as he's applying his skills in a known context and receiving external validation of his ability, all is well.

 

[Martial D]

My opinion on the original question, it depends on what you want to know how to do. Decide what you want to know how to do, design a test, and then test your ability in a way that provides objective, external feedback. Wrestling is a terrible way to learn to strike, but it might be a great way to defeat a competent striker. If you don't want to learn how to throw a punch, but do want to learn how to defeat a person who is good at throwing punches, you just need to find a venue where you can fight guys who are good strikers, and only use your wrestling skills.

This is a simple, universal principle. Are you an aikidoka who wants to use your skills in a fight? Find a venue in which you can fight some folks, and use your skills. Take the feedback, train some more and test it again. As you get better, fight people who are more skilled. If the rule set you're fighting in is too focused, find one that is less restrictive. If you can't find one that is less restrictive, find one that tests a different element of your skill set.

For example, a BJJ guy who wants to be really good at positional control could do very well only ever competing in IBJJF gi tournaments. If he wants to improve his aggression and submission skills, he might also compete in no-gi and also in submission only tournaments. If he wants to use his BJJ skills well against strikers, he can fight in MMA. If he wants to use his BJJ skills on the street, he can work as a bouncer in a seedy bar. None of the above requires him to learn to strike, though the same principles could apply if he wanted to add that skillset to his tool box.

And a note here is, would a BJJ only guy excel in MMA? No... there's a point where he's going to get smashed. But it's up to him to decide how good he wants to be and what skills he wants to improve, and then he can just train for the test. As long as he's applying his skills in a known context and receiving external validation of his ability, all is well.

I'm not sure if these things are comparable. Aikidoka train for cooperative dance, not fighting. You can't use aikido for fighting any more than you can use ballet.

Once the other guy stops throwing himself around the dance is over.

The problem is that for every aikido technique that purports to be the solution to a certain problem(which always seems to be a guy mindlessly charging at you and trying to knife hand chop you) there are ten better and more effective solutions.

 

[Steve]

I'm not sure if these things are comparable. Aikidoka train for cooperative dance, not fighting. You can't use aikido for fighting any more than you can use ballet.

Once the other guy stops throwing himself around the dance is over.

The problem is that for every aikido technique that purports to be the solution to a certain problem(which always seems to be a guy mindlessly charging at you and trying to knife hand chop you) there are ten better and more effective solutions.

maybe, maybe not. I just know if you don't get any objective, external feedback, there's no maybe about it.

And it's not just about better or worse. Take that out of the equation, and it could be a matter of preference. Is aikido the best way to handle a kickboxer? Maybe, maybe not. But if you're not interested in learning to punch or kick, that question is moot. Instead, the salient question is, how well can I use my aikido? Can I use my aikido more effectively?

The simple point I'm trying to make is you don't even begin that journey without testing your skills outside of training. I'm some way.

 

[jobo]

maybe, maybe not. I just know if you don't get any objective, external feedback, there's no maybe about it.

And it's not just about better or worse. Take that out of the equation, and it could be a matter of preference. Is aikido the best way to handle a kickboxer? Maybe, maybe not. But if you're not interested in learning to punch or kick, that question is moot. Instead, the salient question is, how well can I use my aikido? Can I use my aikido more effectively?

The simple point I'm trying to make is you don't even begin that journey without testing your skills outside of training. I'm some way.

but you dont test your skills, as above, do you !, we have established that previously, so why not and why do you think others should do what you wont ?

 

[drop bear]

there much the same, to be honest, only practincing wreselling someone who may punch you is just about as useless as practicing punching someone who may grapple you

Not really.

 

[drop bear]

that would depend greatly on 5he size and conditioning of the people involved, untrained wrestling is largly the application of size and weight and strengh, the possesion of which gives you a considerable advantage, unless you've been trained to combat that. as nether has, it's very much up for grabs

it's no co incidence that body builders types generally want to wrestle you

It isn't untrained though. We are looking at 100 hours of training.

Kit dale essentially advocates learning through sparring. Not exclusively but predominantly.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=122437882446567

 

[jobo]

It isn't untrained though. We are looking at 100 hours of training.

Kit dale essentially advocates learning through sparring. Not exclusively but predominantly.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=122437882446567

he is untrained, in order to be trained you need a trainer AND to achieve a demonstrate able objective standard and he has neither

you could say he was self instructed or practiced,those are terms which mean much what you want them to mean but definitely not trained

 

[Graywalker]

Do some people believe that those who do kata, never spar?

Or, believe that started with UFC?...

I think if all you do is Kata, and do not spar, (which by the way, although useful, is in itself limited), then yes you would be at a disadvantage in a combat situation.

Point sparring, would put you at a disadvantage itself. Semi contact would be better, full contact would help you be prepared slot. If you used zero padding in your sparring, that would be better. IMO.

 

[drop bear]

he is untrained, in order to be trained you need a trainer AND to achieve a demonstrate able objective standard and he has neither

you could say he was self instructed or practiced,those are terms which mean much what you want them to mean but definitely not trained

A hundred hours of sparring is training. You can spar with a trainer present.

 

[jobo]

A hundred hours of sparring is training. You can spar with a trainer present.

you can indeed and that is indeed, but that is not the scenario in the OP, so it isnt in this case