Business School Profs to Bush: Your Policies Stink

[PeachMonkey]

http://maxspeak.org/mt/archives/000818.html

"With all due respect, we believe your tax policy has exacerbated the problem of inequality in the United States, which has worrisome implications for the economy as a whole."

"Sensible and farsighted economic management requires true discipline, compassion, and courage – not just slogans. Given the tenuous state of the American economy, we believe that the time for an honest assessment of the problem and for genuine corrective action is now. Ignoring the fiscal crisis that has taken hold during your presidency may seem politically appealing in the short run, but we fear it could ultimately prove disastrous. From a policy standpoint, the clear message is that more of the same won’t work. The warning signs are already visible, and it is incumbent upon all of us to pay attention."

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Wow. Thanks for the post!

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, this is what happens when you have guys like Bush geting MBAs at Harvard Business School--they get their heads completely full of highfalutin' economic theory promulgated by ideologues, and they completely lose track of reality.

It's even worse when you got a rich collitch boy who never did a lick of real work in his whole life. No wonder he thinks that tax breaks for the wealthy will help the economy.

 

[TwistofFat]

I expect you will enlighten us on John Kerry's experience in the real world. Is John Edward's 'liberal' interpretation of the sub chapter S corp tax laws to avoid medicare taxes a good example of a how they will tax fairly.
The Bush admin has wasted bazillions of dollars no doubt- fiscal conservatives recoil - but if anyone hoestly believes our fiscal saviour is running in either party I would politely disagree.

 

[PeachMonkey]

I expect you will enlighten us on John Kerry's experience in the real world.

I personally think decades of experience as a prosecutor and Senator count for more than decades of evading responsibilities, getting by on the record of your family, running companies (and states... and a country) into the ground...

Is John Edward's 'liberal' interpretation of the sub chapter S corp tax laws to avoid medicare taxes a good example of a how they will tax fairly.

While we're echoing the talking points of debate participants, I'm sure that John Edward's use of S Corp laws (designed to support the "small businesses" that Cheney claims to love, btw) are at least as "fair" as the offshore accounting, misstated financials, and outright deceit and fraud committed by Halliburton, Enron, Global Crossing, Arthur Anderson, and MCI (among many others).

I'm not convinced that Kerry has all the fiscal solutions, but I'm confident that his plan will be more fair, more productive, and less damaging than four more years of what we've got right now.

 

[Cryozombie]

PM, Im curious too on Kerrys take on rasing taxes trimmed by bush for Small Buisness owners... and does he believe that will actually create jobs instead of taking them away...

 

[PeachMonkey]

PM, Im curious too on Kerrys take on rasing taxes trimmed by bush for Small Buisness owners... and does he believe that will actually create jobs instead of taking them away...

Technopunk,

The idea that Kerry's out to raise taxes on small business owners is just another distortion by Cheney and Bush.

Check out this URL (and scroll down to Lie 8/Fact 8):

http://www.democrats.org/news/200410060007.html

 

[Cryozombie]

Technopunk,

The idea that Kerry's out to raise taxes on small business owners is just another distortion by Cheney and Bush.

Check out this URL (and scroll down to Lie 8/Fact 8):

http://www.democrats.org/news/200410060007.html

I understand that, but all they really argued in that "counterfact" was the number of Small Buisnesses that would be effected. I read that as "Well, the Bush people are lying we arent doing that because they inflated the numbers"

They dont deny that their plan would hit the small buisness owners, just the NUMBER of small buisness owners, and then go on to say that the money they tax would MOSTLY come from sources other than their buisnesses.

After reading that,

As someone who is working hard to get a Small Buisness started, I wanna know what "Other" source of income I can get besides my buisness... maybe a second job?

But that rasies a good question as well... if I am doing poorly enough to need an alternate source of income, do i NEED to be taxed more...

The whole thing makes my head spin trying to think about it.

Let me ask this as well... is the actual dollar amount a small buisness can earn actually 200,000.00 a year? Because if you were not running a LLC or somthing similar where your taxes come from your earnings as opposed to say a C-Corp where the company is its own "Entity" and would be soley responsible for those taxes from it income, then wouldnt the small buisness be more likely to actually have to pay those taxes?

The whole thing, from BOTH sides smells like a bunch of Horse Manure and Propaganda-speak if you ask me.

Bottom Line to the question...

WILL SMALL BUISNESSES BE EFFECTED BY KERRYS PLAN:

ANSWER YES.

 

[michaeledward]

Technopunk, I am not a tax attorney, and I don't play one on TV. So, take what I am going to say with the appropriate caveats.

I agree, that Kerry's plan is going to affect small business owners. How it will affect small business owners is the question. And, how will the policies of the Bush administration affect small business owners by comparison? That is actually the real question. And that is not going to be answered in a 90 minute debate. Nor would it be able to be answered in a month-long thread on this board by a bunch of know-littles, know-less and know-nothings like us. (please take that as a humorous comment ... and put me in the last group if you wish).

The question that I would raise before you is this:

If you have the guts to open your own business, to hang out that shingle with your name on it, are you doing based on tax policy? Will you not take that step because of some obscure rules in the tax code?

I think the answer is, "of course not".

You are going to open your business because of the idea that in America, you can. If you want to make a little bit of money, go into business for someone else. But if you want a shot at making alot of money, go into business for yourself. It's the American Way. You may fail. You may go broke. But, you could be the next Ben & Gerry's or the next Martha Stewart. That's the dream, isn't it?

So, yeah, the tax policies of either candidate are going to affect small businesses. But, isn't that going to be one of the last concerns you have when opening your business? Aren't you going to pay more attention to your Yellow Pages ad, and your Web site?

Last thought ... society has set up rules, and institutions to enforce those rules, in part so that people who do open businesses, and enter into agreements with others for goods & services (vendors or customers) can be assured that obligations will be met, or consequences will be meted out. Only with these rules can society function. The enforcement of the rules and institutions requires taxation, at some level. The debates are always about where that level of taxation naturally resides. And I think you know we've discussed that elsewhere.

Good luck in your endeavors. Having been a small business for the first 13 years of my working career, I have the highest respect for those who run their own businesses. I am not working for someone else, and it is good to not have all the responsibility on my own shoulders.

Mike

 

[Cryozombie]

If you have the guts to open your own business, to hang out that shingle with your name on it, are you doing based on tax policy? Will you not take that step because of some obscure rules in the tax code?

I think the answer is, "of course not".


Mike

Absolutley. My only point was that I said I was curious to see how Kerry's proposal would effect the Small Buisnesses that the Bush admin's tax cuts helped, and it was pointed out that the Republicans were lying and that it wasn't going to effect them. When I checked the source cited to me, I found that not to be the case, and pointed out my findings.

I will say, that in trying to decide HOW to classify my buisness, I have been leaning twords a C-Corp as opposed to an LLC or Sole Propriership, because despite the extra start up cost for setting up a Corporation, from what I ahve read the tax benefits are more worthwhile. (I'm no tax expert either... I'll need an accountant for sure) So, while My buisness may not be based on Tax Policy, the classification of the corporation/buisness may be.

Of course... I would be supprised if i earn enough from this buisness to fall under Kerry's 200,000.00 ruling... I know I wont be quitting my day job anytime soon.

 

[PeachMonkey]

it was pointed out that the Republicans were lying and that it wasn't going to effect them.

Actually, if you review the thread, you'll find specifically that I disputed the claim by the Republicans that Kerry will "raise taxes on small businesses". I stand by this point.

Kerry does not intend to "raise taxes on small business"; as you have pointed out, however, his tax plan may effect some small businesses.

The Bush/Cheney claim is a distortion, meant to imply that Kerry is specifically targeting small businesses with his new tax code.

 

[Cryozombie]

Actually, if you review the thread, you'll find specifically that I disputed the claim by the Republicans that Kerry will "raise taxes on small businesses". I stand by this point.

Kerry does not intend to "raise taxes on small business"; as you have pointed out, however, his tax plan may effect some small businesses.

The Bush/Cheney claim is a distortion, meant to imply that Kerry is specifically targeting small businesses with his new tax code.

Ah, my mistake then.

 

[8253]

Not to offend anybodys ideas, but when Bush was elected, i was finally able to find a job.

 

[michaeledward]

Not to offend anybodys ideas, but when Bush was elected, i was finally able to find a job.

Congratulations.
Are you positing there is a causal relationship?
Was there something about the Clinton administration that you feel was preventing you from 'finding' a job?
You are aware that many more Ohioans have lost jobs during the past 3 and 1/2 years than have 'found' jobs?

No offense taken. Mike

 

[TwistofFat]

While we're echoing the talking points of debate participants, I'm sure that John Edward's use of S Corp laws (designed to support the "small businesses" that Cheney claims to love, btw) are at least as "fair" as the offshore accounting, misstated financials, and outright deceit and fraud committed by Halliburton, Enron, Global Crossing, Arthur Anderson, and MCI (among many others).
QUOTE]

PM - as an (sometime) accountant, I do not need some rich GOP ahole to point out an inconsistancy that sends many of our clients in front of a IRS review board. I believe Terry Mc. of the Dems made how much off of the failure of Global Crossing? Arthur Andersen...please. Enron and AA screwed the pooch by living on the very edge. The entire "irrational exuberence" as ashewed by the FED chair started in the mid ninties. Remember Ariba's $300 a share - where are they now. Do we need to get into the Clinton admins role in this? The road to hell began in 1/01?

The government spends like a druken sailor and gets worse every year. I have yet to hear any other plan to reduce the rate of growth of governement from any candidate - unless you count tax increases. Hell - Richard pryor and George Carlin used to make the world laugh ridiculing the taxman. Now we embrace his wisdom as long as he wears our pointed hat.

 

[TwistofFat]

Technopunk, I am not a tax attorney, and I don't play one on TV. So, take what I am going to say with the appropriate caveats.

I agree, that Kerry's plan is going to affect small business owners.....
...Good luck in your endeavors. Having been a small business for the first 13 years of my working career, I have the highest respect for those who run their own businesses. I am not working for someone else, and it is good to not have all the responsibility on my own shoulders.

Mike

Mike - VERY well said.

 

[8253]

Congratulations.
Are you positing there is a causal relationship?
Was there something about the Clinton administration that you feel was preventing you from 'finding' a job?
You are aware that many more Ohioans have lost jobs during the past 3 and 1/2 years than have 'found' jobs?

No offense taken. Mike

Ive got to agree with you on the job thing. As far as the Clinton administration, i really cant say anything too bad about that either. As far as companys leaving the country and taking jobs away, i cant really see where that would be a Presidents fault alone. I believe that the fault lay equally between the President and Congress. It is Congress who really sets the wages, taxes, etc. If a President veto's it then the veto can be overridden with a certain percentage of the Congressional vote. If a President signs a bill, then that can also be overturned. Even at that rate though, I see company's moving out the of US to save money. However these companys are making billions. I think it is more of a greed with large corporate business.