Boxing Day Shoot out

[Lisa]

What is this world coming to today when you can't even go out on Boxing day and shop safely. The crowds are bad enough. This is so sad.

Up to 15 people were involved in a Boxing Day shootout among hundreds of shoppers on the sidewalks of Yonge Street in downtown Toronto.


"They were just set upon by these hoodlums, that's the only way I can describe these people," Det. Sgt. Savas Kyriacou of the Toronto Police Service said Tuesday.
Two men are in custody, but no charges have been laid by police in the incident that killed one person and wounded six others.

FULL STORY

 

[Rich Parsons]

What is this world coming to today when you can't even go out on Boxing day and shop safely. The crowds are bad enough. This is so sad.


FULL STORY

Toronto?

This is the same Toronto in Ontario, that is Ontario Canada right?

The same province that instituted the gun registration laws before the rest of the country?

The one where you are not supposed to be carrying a gun at all?

I think we should make some laws about that, people should not be able to shoot other people. Oh wait there are laws, and there are laws restricting usage, so this is very confusing to me.

 

[michaeledward]

A very sad day, for the safest big city in North America, and for all of North America, I think. I understand a teenage girl was killed. Several others were wounded.

The rise of gangs in Toronto is a very new phenomena. There have been large changes in the city, very quickly in recent years.

Rich Parsons, while an examination of laws, and the juxtaposition of this shooting may lead to an interesting dissertation, I think irony is, perhaps, not suited to this topic, on this day.

 

[Rich Parsons]

A very sad day, for the safest big city in North America, and for all of North America, I think. I understand a teenage girl was killed. Several others were wounded.

The rise of gangs in Toronto is a very new phenomena. There have been large changes in the city, very quickly in recent years.

Rich Parsons, while an examination of laws, and the juxtaposition of this shooting may lead to an interesting dissertation, I think irony is, perhaps, not suited to this topic, on this day.

Mr Edwards,

Thank you for your comments. I will remember such, and remind you of such in the future as well. For what is good for those who state it to others is also good for them.

Good Day Sir
:asian:

 

[michaeledward]

Mr Edwards,

Thank you for your comments. I will remember such, and remind you of such in the future as well. For what is good for those who state it to others is also good for them.

Good Day Sir

A statement with which I can certainly agree.

 

[Rich Parsons]

A statement with which I can certainly agree.

And if this was placed in the Hall of Rememberance I would have not brought in a discussion as I did.

If the original poster had stated more that would have lead one to obviously know that this was emotional in content and not philisophical as in the loss of innocence it would have been posted differntly.

Remember it is better to not start a fight here but to report the post for investigation.

This is the study, and discussion occur all the time, yet, out of difference and respect to those who were injured or killed we shall end this. I hope that all other discussions about the War(s) end. I hope that all discussion about tax money that is used for military and such is stopped, as we might not be having a philisophical dicussion in the study but to insult those who may or may not have been hurt in any such incident.

Are you ready to leave the study?

Are you ready to not reply to any of the topics where death may be an issue?

Very curious as to your answer.

 

[michaeledward]

And if this was placed in the Hall of Rememberance I would have not brought in a discussion as I did.

If the original poster had stated more that would have lead one to obviously know that this was emotional in content and not philisophical as in the loss of innocence it would have been posted differntly.

Remember it is better to not start a fight here but to report the post for investigation.

This is the study, and discussion occur all the time, yet, out of difference and respect to those who were injured or killed we shall end this. I hope that all other discussions about the War(s) end. I hope that all discussion about tax money that is used for military and such is stopped, as we might not be having a philisophical dicussion in the study but to insult those who may or may not have been hurt in any such incident.

Are you ready to leave the study?

Are you ready to not reply to any of the topics where death may be an issue?

Very curious as to your answer.

No, I am not ready to leave the study. Here, my short experience with martial arts does not leave me in a position of lesser knowledge or authority. I have found I often need to check my posts in the Kenpo area, because my experience is incomplete, and as such, what I may have to offer may be less than sufficient.

In the Study, my life experiences are equal to all other posters. My opinions and points of view share equal merit with all of our colleagues here.

I think discussions can occur on very serious subjects, including those where deaths occur. I think positions and attitudes held can be argued vigorously and we need not all come to agreement on any topic.

I also think these discussions can carry on with sensitivity. I think the original posters' intent was clear. But, I can also understand that this medium of exchange, sometimes does not lend itself to easy understanding.

So, I will mourn for a wonderful city, that has experienced an unexpected awakening. It had thought itself immune from the ravages it sees on the broadcasts across the river. It was, it believed, protected by the water. Today, it learned otherwise.

A story, we have heard, and seen before. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Lisa]

Gentlemen,

If I could help clear up some misunderstanding and if my orginal post was misguiding, I apologise.

This truly is a sad day for Canada, this happening during the holiday season, peace on earth, good will toward men and all.

That being said, with Canadians heading into a tough election in the coming weeks with the Prime Minister vowing to ban hand guns, I would like to hear others views.

I posted this link here in the study in hopes of seeing some discussion on the situation, the rising problem of gun related violence, gang related problems and current and upcoming gun laws. All of which, I believe, are issues in every society.

Hope this clears things up.

:asian: Lisa

 

[Flatlander]

Good topic, Lisa. For Canadians there will be no genuine threat to the current status quo regarding the legal ownership of handguns, irrespective of Paul Martin's attempt to earn polical points in answering what is truly a growing issue in Canada's urban areas.

To begin with, his proposed changes to the Criminal Code will continue to allow for "target shooters" to own handguns, effectively disallowing the current status of "collector" from doing so without becoming a "target shooter".

Martin said on Thursday that his government, if re-elected in the Jan. 23 vote, would immediately introduce the handgun ban, offering narrowly defined exemptions for target shooters and allowing collectors time to sell or dispose of their weapons.
Collectors will have to sell or surrender their weapons over five years or become target shooters.
Under the current system, handguns are prohibited but people are allowed to possess a restricted firearm for target practice, target shooting competitions, to form part of a collection or, in rare cases, for employment purposes or to protect your life.

Further, according to the same article, Martin intends to make this Federal Amendment optional for the individual provinces to adopt. Essentially, this talking point was aimed at Ontarians, IMO. Which, of course, is totally unsurprising, as the Federal Government has always, and will continue to pander to Ontario. Over one third of Parliament is comprised of Ontario seats.

As far as I can figure, this is a sad attempt at addressing the gun violence issue. These crimes are not being committed by legal gun owners.


article* - http://www.cbc.ca/story/canadavotes2006/national/2005/12/08/elxn-martin-guns.html

 

[jdinca]

Gentlemen,

If I could help clear up some misunderstanding and if my orginal post was misguiding, I apologise.

This truly is a sad day for Canada, this happening during the holiday season, peace on earth, good will toward men and all.

That being said, with Canadians heading into a tough election in the coming weeks with the Prime Minister vowing to ban hand guns, I would like to hear others views.

I posted this link here in the study in hopes of seeing some discussion on the situation, the rising problem of gun related violence, gang related problems and current and upcoming gun laws. All of which, I believe, are issues in every society.

Hope this clears things up.

:asian: Lisa

A sad day for Canada indeed. It's appropriate to mourn the dead. Even on holidays, there are turds in the world.

As for the hand gun ban, the result is that only criminals will have hand guns. They somehow never seem to understand that they can't have them anymore. Texas, which has VERY liberal gun laws, has one of the lowest crime rates in the country. "A well armed society is a polite society." My feeling is that the best avenue is to enforce the current laws on the books which, here in America is far from the case. I don't own a gun but I don't care if others do, provided they take all the safety precautions they can, including training.

Mr. Edwards, I fully appreciate your point of view, as well as Mr. Parsons. All I can say is that different people have different life experiences and different perspectives and all need to be respected. I've seen a lot of death in my life violent and otherwise and, as sad as death can be, it doesn't affect me the way it does most people, so I wasn't bothered by Parsons response at all. I'm sorry that you were. It shows that you're a caring soul.

 

[Lisa]

As far as I can figure, this is a sad attempt at addressing the gun violence issue. These crimes are not being committed by legal gun owners.


article* - http://www.cbc.ca/story/canadavotes2006/national/2005/12/08/elxn-martin-guns.html

Couldn't agree with you more, Dan. Good article. The answer to avoiding days like the Boxing day shootings is to get to the root of the problem. Poverty and lack of skills to get good jobs forcing people into dispair. We need our government to uphold the laws we have and enforce prison sentences for crimes committed with guns.

The Toronto Youth Cabinet:

In the wake of the Boxing Day gun battle on Yonge Street, a coalition of youth groups called on all levels of government to help solve the root causes of violence and not just crack down on gun crime.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/lo...binet_newser_051227/20051227/?hub=TorontoHome

 

[Rich Parsons]

No, I am not ready to leave the study. Here, my short experience with martial arts does not leave me in a position of lesser knowledge or authority. I have found I often need to check my posts in the Kenpo area, because my experience is incomplete, and as such, what I may have to offer may be less than sufficient.

In the Study, my life experiences are equal to all other posters. My opinions and points of view share equal merit with all of our colleagues here.

I think discussions can occur on very serious subjects, including those where deaths occur. I think positions and attitudes held can be argued vigorously and we need not all come to agreement on any topic.

I also think these discussions can carry on with sensitivity. I think the original posters' intent was clear. But, I can also understand that this medium of exchange, sometimes does not lend itself to easy understanding.

So, I will mourn for a wonderful city, that has experienced an unexpected awakening. It had thought itself immune from the ravages it sees on the broadcasts across the river. It was, it believed, protected by the water. Today, it learned otherwise.

A story, we have heard, and seen before. Wouldn't you agree?

So, by your own words then my opinion in the study has weight.

I also wonder why you think the issue is from the USA and nto from with in Canada itself? Could not this wonderful country have problems of unemployment and or labor issues of its own? Or are those issues the cause of people from that horrible country everyone loves to hate the USA?

** I like my country and do not want to move elsewhere, permanently, for a short time for work maybe. I support the US Constitution, even though there are those that try to makes its powers less each and every day. And yes Irony can be a very interesting way to make a point.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Gentlemen,

If I could help clear up some misunderstanding and if my orginal post was misguiding, I apologise.

This truly is a sad day for Canada, this happening during the holiday season, peace on earth, good will toward men and all.

That being said, with Canadians heading into a tough election in the coming weeks with the Prime Minister vowing to ban hand guns, I would like to hear others views.

I posted this link here in the study in hopes of seeing some discussion on the situation, the rising problem of gun related violence, gang related problems and current and upcoming gun laws. All of which, I believe, are issues in every society.

Hope this clears things up.

:asian: Lisa

Lisa,

Thank you for the clarification. This can direct the thread to your original intent. :asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Good topic, Lisa. For Canadians there will be no genuine threat to the current status quo regarding the legal ownership of handguns, irrespective of Paul Martin's attempt to earn polical points in answering what is truly a growing issue in Canada's urban areas.

To begin with, his proposed changes to the Criminal Code will continue to allow for "target shooters" to own handguns, effectively disallowing the current status of "collector" from doing so without becoming a "target shooter".




Further, according to the same article, Martin intends to make this Federal Amendment optional for the individual provinces to adopt. Essentially, this talking point was aimed at Ontarians, IMO. Which, of course, is totally unsurprising, as the Federal Government has always, and will continue to pander to Ontario. Over one third of Parliament is comprised of Ontario seats.

As far as I can figure, this is a sad attempt at addressing the gun violence issue. These crimes are not being committed by legal gun owners.


article* - http://www.cbc.ca/story/canadavotes2006/national/2005/12/08/elxn-martin-guns.html

So, what I read here, is a politician, who is looking to gain votes based upon fear of the general public, when the general public is not the issue specifically. The issue(s) are jobs and long term employment, and crime issues, by criminals, not what is considered legal gun owners.

Why solve the issue or the root cause, when you can put bandages on the issue that other countries have shown do not work?

Gun issues, and other issues like them are to get people emotional and to vote that way, and not to look at the real issues, even if they are hard to handle or grasp, which if one was to educate the population could discuss and not avoid. Yet, history has shown us that as long as the people have food and circuses, they allow the government large leeway and care not for their rights or even their responsibilities.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

What is this world coming to today when you can't even go out on Boxing day and shop safely. The crowds are bad enough. This is so sad.


FULL STORY

This is terrible. I feel for the girl and her family. What a tragedy.

 

[Lisa]

So, what I read here, is a politician, who is looking to gain votes based upon fear of the general public, when the general public is not the issue specifically. The issue(s) are jobs and long term employment, and crime issues, by criminals, not what is considered legal gun owners.

Why solve the issue or the root cause, when you can put bandages on the issue that other countries have shown do not work?

Gun issues, and other issues like them are to get people emotional and to vote that way, and not to look at the real issues, even if they are hard to handle or grasp, which if one was to educate the population could discuss and not avoid. Yet, history has shown us that as long as the people have food and circuses, they allow the government large leeway and care not for their rights or even their responsibilities.

I will never be able to forget one of the political campaign commercials put forth by the Liberal government at the last election. It had me staring down the barrel of what I believe was a glock with the message that the Conservative party wanted to change gun laws and basically make Canada unsafe, and did we as Canadians want to allow them to do that. It, indeed, sent a very strong emotional message to the public.

Gun crime seems to be on the top of the campaign agenda now after this tragedy. I think it would be a shame and a crime in itself to use this horrible incident to help win an election.

Toronto is a beautiful, relatively safe city with a homicide rate of somewhere around 1.7 per 100,000 (sorry I can't find the reference, I just remember the number). I live in a city of a homicide rate of about 5 per 100,000 and still feel relatively safe in my community. The difference for me is that I have a good job, food on my table and do not have a feeling of despiration.

Youth programs and prevention is the key, IMHO. If you feel backed into a corner and desperate then gang relations, guns and violence may seem to be the answer to your problems.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Youth programs and prevention is the key, IMHO. If you feel backed into a corner and desperate then gang relations, guns and violence may seem to be the answer to your problems.

While I agree with your main point, it also takes a very "special" (not in a good way) person to commit premeditated murder - a hard life and lack of opportunities doesn't fully explain it.

 

[Lisa]

While I agree with your main point, it also takes a very "special" (not in a good way) person to commit premeditated murder - a hard life and lack of opportunities doesn't fully explain it.

I see your point and you are right. Solving the problems of poverty and lack of opportunity will not stop all the gun violence and stop all the acts of murder, but it certainly will help. Those "special" (not in a good way) people come from all walks of life, rich, middle, and poor.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I will never be able to forget one of the political campaign commercials put forth by the Liberal government at the last election. It had me staring down the barrel of what I believe was a glock with the message that the Conservative party wanted to change gun laws and basically make Canada unsafe, and did we as Canadians want to allow them to do that. It, indeed, sent a very strong emotional message to the public.

Gun crime seems to be on the top of the campaign agenda now after this tragedy. I think it would be a shame and a crime in itself to use this horrible incident to help win an election.

Toronto is a beautiful, relatively safe city with a homicide rate of somewhere around 1.7 per 100,000 (sorry I can't find the reference, I just remember the number). I live in a city of a homicide rate of about 5 per 100,000 and still feel relatively safe in my community. The difference for me is that I have a good job, food on my table and do not have a feeling of despiration.

Youth programs and prevention is the key, IMHO. If you feel backed into a corner and desperate then gang relations, guns and violence may seem to be the answer to your problems.

I do not live in a city with a high crime rate, but I live 5 minutes from one of the worse cities in the US per capita (* per 1,000 people *).

I do not have a gun, but am thinking of one. A .22 for target only, not for protection.

A few years ago NY state and before that New Jersey, had legislation to create boards for how martial arts schools would be run and who could own them, such as 5th degree to own and 3rd degree to be a teacher. The issues were not to gather fees, or to address poor services rendered by poor martial artists. The issue was there was a single case for each state, where there was a child molester, and this was their approach to get instructors registered. It did nothing about the root cause of child abuse or assault. I called the authors of the bills, in each state to express my opinion, for states follow what other states have done. I did not want that to happen, for one of the arts I study has to ranks, student and teacher. If you are teaching and someone comes in you had better be able to defend yourself and handle all comers, even though this is hardly done at all in the states.

I love Toronto, I have spent many a night there, even when I was a young teenager in high school. Compared to the US cities I had grew up in and stayed in the city was clean and safe. It is sad that this happened. Yet, this has been discussed before, I think a couple of years ago with another violent crime occured.

With the exception of the USA, which has an admendment that states "Arms", all other countries, that I know of, that have registered policies have later restricted the usage and then collected the the fire arms.

 

[michaeledward]

So, by your own words then my opinion in the study has weight.

I also wonder why you think the issue is from the USA and nto from with in Canada itself? Could not this wonderful country have problems of unemployment and or labor issues of its own? Or are those issues the cause of people from that horrible country everyone loves to hate the USA?

** I like my country and do not want to move elsewhere, permanently, for a short time for work maybe. I support the US Constitution, even though there are those that try to makes its powers less each and every day. And yes Irony can be a very interesting way to make a point.

Rich Parsons, of course your opinion has weight. I tried to point out that it lacked in tact. I never thought it would expand to a half a dozen postings.

There weren't too many crashing airplane jokes on September 12, were there?

Toronto, for many years, has billed itself as the Safest Big City in North America. Around it, across North America, gang violence, and gun violence have spead, while it had remained relatively non-violent. What is it that we call 'moving from high density to low density', osmosis? The rise of gang activity comes late to Toronto, which is why I described it as coming from 'across the water'. It was an oasis of low-violence. Not any longer.