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"Black Flag" Wing Chun? Huh?
- Thread starter Marnetmar
- Start date
The Black Flag Army (Chinese: 黑旗军; pinyin: Hēiqà Jūn; Vietnamese: Quân cờ đen) was a splinter remnant of a bandit group recruited largely from soldiers of ethnic Zhuang background, who crossed the border in 1865 from Guangxi, China into Upper Tonkin, then part of the Empire of Annam (Vietnam). Although brigands, they were known mainly for their fights against the invading French forces, who were then moving into Tonkin. With the sanction of both Vietnamese and Chinese authorities, the Black Flags joined the Vietnamese regular forces, stemming French encroachment beyond the Red River Delta. The Black Flag Army is so named because of the preference of its commander, Liu Yongfu, for using black command flags.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Flag_Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Flag_Army
almost a ghost
Blue Belt
Looks like a mash up between white crane (the overall movements) with chow-gar (southern mantis) energy snapping/whipping. Pretty cool.
mook jong man
Senior Master
That would mainly comprise of drunken flailing and vomiting wouldn't it ?
nyuk nyuk
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
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mook jong man
Senior Master
wingchun100
Senior Master
That would mainly comprise of drunken flailing and vomiting wouldn't it ?
Not to mention forays into lesbianism/bisexuality. All the cool kids are doing it these days!
cwk
Blue Belt
I think I might be a lesbian.
Could we please not go there
what going on here is a mixture of different style and made up history.
black flag is an old bandit group from China. Take advantage of the archives: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...-another-look-at-Black-Flag-historical-claims
Here are some videos on the so called bfwc background.
Sam Chien by Shifu Thio Tek Kwie ( Full Version ) 三戰武術
and a video from the 18 hands of Lohan group
there is alot of information on this group out there if you look for it
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Tong Chuang
Yellow Belt
Ok, so I succumbed to the hype.
I admit to buying the 3-set 'Shaolin Black Flag Wing Chun' DVD set. Ebay - direct from Dayton, Ohio
It was a lot cheaper than paying for the lessons, plus there is no class near me as far as I know.
I am aware of most of the political arguments and mud-slinging that has gone on recently concerning the authenticity of this 'Lineage' - but I felt obliged to see the flip-side of the coin. My 'gut instinct' after reading the adverse propaganda told me not to waste the money - but my curiosity told me to find out for myself. Curiosity won.
When very knowledgeable Wing Chun practitioners such as Sifu Benny Meng and Sifu Sergio are suddenly raving about this new style they have discovered, it must have something to it that they have been searching for. I am aware that Sifu Sergio no longer supports this Lineage as genuine, and maybe he is right, but if you listen to this Audio clip of him (speaking to Sifu Paul Hawkes) he seems genuinely ('a massive, massive improvement') impressed: Paste into browser
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44930001/a-conversation-with-sifu-sergio.mp3
After buying the DVD set I found this Audio Clip by Sifu Paul Hawkes (who I know of from going to a couple of his seminars, so I respect his view), which gives a more balanced assessment of the current status quo:
Blackflagwingchun.nl | The facts about Black Flag Wing Chun
I also noticed that Sifu Sergio seems to have incorporated some of the Black Flag impulse / faat ging elements into his curriculum. So I was genuinely interested in seeing what all the fuss was about.
Well, now I've seen the DVD's, I've tried some of the concepts and I'm just trying to absorb the teaching.
My concluding impression, using all the limited facts available to me, (including several years practicing other WC) is:
In summary, it has some useful unique concepts and techniques that are not in the mainstream WC.
I too, am doubtful of it's origins - but the truth is hard to find in the WC World.
My own choice would be to learn a Hung Fa Yi based system but having said that I personally am incorporating some of the Luohan-Ng Cho Kun Yang elements into my second way of performing Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kiu and Bil Jee. (The first way I perform them takes 20 mins for each one, but that is a Yin secret, ha ha ha ha maniacal laugh :boing1
I prefer the TWC / Hung Fa Yi footwork personally, compared to the Hek Ki Boen, but that is not to say it is ineffective, it seems to offer superior mobility than the Leung Ting Lineage (apart from his 'now I show you secret footwork ha ha')
Absorb what is useful
I admit to buying the 3-set 'Shaolin Black Flag Wing Chun' DVD set. Ebay - direct from Dayton, Ohio
It was a lot cheaper than paying for the lessons, plus there is no class near me as far as I know.
I am aware of most of the political arguments and mud-slinging that has gone on recently concerning the authenticity of this 'Lineage' - but I felt obliged to see the flip-side of the coin. My 'gut instinct' after reading the adverse propaganda told me not to waste the money - but my curiosity told me to find out for myself. Curiosity won.
When very knowledgeable Wing Chun practitioners such as Sifu Benny Meng and Sifu Sergio are suddenly raving about this new style they have discovered, it must have something to it that they have been searching for. I am aware that Sifu Sergio no longer supports this Lineage as genuine, and maybe he is right, but if you listen to this Audio clip of him (speaking to Sifu Paul Hawkes) he seems genuinely ('a massive, massive improvement') impressed: Paste into browser
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44930001/a-conversation-with-sifu-sergio.mp3
After buying the DVD set I found this Audio Clip by Sifu Paul Hawkes (who I know of from going to a couple of his seminars, so I respect his view), which gives a more balanced assessment of the current status quo:
Blackflagwingchun.nl | The facts about Black Flag Wing Chun
I also noticed that Sifu Sergio seems to have incorporated some of the Black Flag impulse / faat ging elements into his curriculum. So I was genuinely interested in seeing what all the fuss was about.
Well, now I've seen the DVD's, I've tried some of the concepts and I'm just trying to absorb the teaching.
My concluding impression, using all the limited facts available to me, (including several years practicing other WC) is:
- Hek Ki Boen /Black Flag whatever you want to call it seems to be a hybrid system based on Luohan-Ng Cho Kun incorporating elements of Hung Fa Yi and other Wing Chun.
- It has some interesting footwork / stances that might be useful in combat.
- The shocking / impulse power, speed developed is indeed impressive.
- If you wanted to kill someone with a neck chop - this would be the style to use
- But would you want to kill someone and have that karma loaded on you?
- Some of the concepts are presented as 'new' or unique but have been around before if you have some experience e.g the rebounding bong sau forward energy is taught in WT etc.
- It requires a lot of Yang energy to practice
In summary, it has some useful unique concepts and techniques that are not in the mainstream WC.
I too, am doubtful of it's origins - but the truth is hard to find in the WC World.
My own choice would be to learn a Hung Fa Yi based system but having said that I personally am incorporating some of the Luohan-Ng Cho Kun Yang elements into my second way of performing Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kiu and Bil Jee. (The first way I perform them takes 20 mins for each one, but that is a Yin secret, ha ha ha ha maniacal laugh :boing1
I prefer the TWC / Hung Fa Yi footwork personally, compared to the Hek Ki Boen, but that is not to say it is ineffective, it seems to offer superior mobility than the Leung Ting Lineage (apart from his 'now I show you secret footwork ha ha')
Absorb what is useful
wingchun100
Senior Master
Benny Meng? He came to my school when Yip Ching was in town for a seminar. Pretty cool to have one of Yip Man's sons right here in Albany.
Tong Chuang
Yellow Belt
Sifu Kenneth Lin gives a glimpse of the Hek Ki Boen (Black Flag Wing Chun) Wooden Dummy:
Black Flag Wing Chun 2014 - YouTube
See that hand speed - ouch!
Note the Four Arms and 2 -axis pivoting , interesting...
Student using Jong
Some of the Current Curriculum
The HKB Kuntao System General Overview:
(1) Four HKB Kuntao Forms; (a) Eng Chun Kun Form
Section 1: Sam Chian Po Section: 3 Battle Step.
Section 2: 108 Lohan Jiu Section: 108 Lohan Hands.
Section 3: Sat Si Mui Section: Pursuing 4 Direction
Section4: Hua Kun Section: Flowery Fist
Section 5: Ti Saam Chian Po Section: Earth 3 Battle Step.
Section 6: Tim Kiao Section: Sinking the bridge.
Section 7: Sam Chian w/ 9 Tendon Activation
Section 8: Dan Tian Sam Chian
Section 9: Sip Ji Kun Section: Character 10 Form
Section 10: Sam Chian w/ Qi Gong.
(b) Dummy Form / 2 Man Set Version
(c) Sang To (Double Butterfly Sword)
(d) Pat Mui Kun Huat (HKB Pole)
more at :
HKB Eng Chun
HKB Wing Chun Program - Hek Ki Boen Wing Chun Online University
On the retail DVDs, as well as the Classic Straight Punch they use a high hooking punch on the basis that it's not all about the straight line between points but the most energy-efficient method that counts - Sifu Lin uses the example of instead of knocking down the wall - go through the nearby open door. 'All techniques in HKB are based on curves he claims.
Hek Ki Boen Wooden Dummy -section 7 sample pics:
Black Flag Wing Chun Wooden Dummy [Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun Bok Jin Thoum] Section 7 - Hek Ki Boen Wing Chun Online University
They have online University and Webinars ...hmmm.
The Instructor program seems heavily geared to flow money up the multi-level marketing Pyramid and is hugely expensive:
http://web.archive.org/web/20140425213658/http://www.hekkiboen.com/enthusiastic/#.U1rXQ6I0qXE
Sifu Lin claims you can become a Kung Fu millionare! seems a bit too good to be true - where are all the students going to come from?
Black Flag Wing Chun 2014 - YouTube
See that hand speed - ouch!
Note the Four Arms and 2 -axis pivoting , interesting...
Student using Jong
Some of the Current Curriculum
The HKB Kuntao System General Overview:
(1) Four HKB Kuntao Forms; (a) Eng Chun Kun Form
Section 1: Sam Chian Po Section: 3 Battle Step.
Section 2: 108 Lohan Jiu Section: 108 Lohan Hands.
Section 3: Sat Si Mui Section: Pursuing 4 Direction
Section4: Hua Kun Section: Flowery Fist
Section 5: Ti Saam Chian Po Section: Earth 3 Battle Step.
Section 6: Tim Kiao Section: Sinking the bridge.
Section 7: Sam Chian w/ 9 Tendon Activation
Section 8: Dan Tian Sam Chian
Section 9: Sip Ji Kun Section: Character 10 Form
Section 10: Sam Chian w/ Qi Gong.
(b) Dummy Form / 2 Man Set Version
(c) Sang To (Double Butterfly Sword)
(d) Pat Mui Kun Huat (HKB Pole)
more at :
HKB Eng Chun
HKB Wing Chun Program - Hek Ki Boen Wing Chun Online University
On the retail DVDs, as well as the Classic Straight Punch they use a high hooking punch on the basis that it's not all about the straight line between points but the most energy-efficient method that counts - Sifu Lin uses the example of instead of knocking down the wall - go through the nearby open door. 'All techniques in HKB are based on curves he claims.
Hek Ki Boen Wooden Dummy -section 7 sample pics:
Black Flag Wing Chun Wooden Dummy [Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun Bok Jin Thoum] Section 7 - Hek Ki Boen Wing Chun Online University
They have online University and Webinars ...hmmm.
The Instructor program seems heavily geared to flow money up the multi-level marketing Pyramid and is hugely expensive:
http://web.archive.org/web/20140425213658/http://www.hekkiboen.com/enthusiastic/#.U1rXQ6I0qXE
Sifu Lin claims you can become a Kung Fu millionare! seems a bit too good to be true - where are all the students going to come from?
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